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AutoHotkey Needs You


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PhiLho
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The idea of INI file (or similar) for translated strings works well for translating a GUI, but I find it strange for translating a document. I don't see how this helps, seems more getting in the way. Of course, some sentences (like explaining WinTitle parameter) come quite frequently, but beside, that's mostly total rewriting.
Unless you have in mind some templating system, with general help structure, filled with raw data (from plain text file). That would help global changes like the one that came up recently.

I hope you use "CVS" as general versioning system name. CVS itself is badly outdated, using SVN should be much better.
Note that now that Chris opened a AutoHotkey account on SourceForge, we have a SVN repository ready to be used...

Should I open a new topic for it?

Yes.

Basically, this is a good idea, but that's lot of work.
Posted Image vPhiLho := RegExReplace("Philippe Lhoste", "^(\w{3})\w*\s+\b(\w{3})\w*$", "$1$2")

Thalon
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Translation-Topic

majkinetor
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I think it is waste of time.

People that don't want to learn English language witch is standard for nation independed communication on the internet don't deserve such large work because of their lazines. English is probably the easiest language to learn due to its lack of sophistication and in case you don't understand something there is alwasy babelfish. Finally, the one basicly needs just computer reletad jargon - its not like Shaekspire writes on the forum.

I understood 0 English words first time when I got computer and everything I learned is due to its usage and little will.

At last, this leads to separation of knowledge. So, I don't support "official" involvement in creating translated pages as that time can be much better used.
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PhiLho
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You should have answered in the new topic...
You are partially right. Hence, of course, partially wrong (IMHO, of course).
I don't believe people should learn English just to use a computer. There are already lot of stuff to learn when using a computer for the first time, don't add the complexity of a new language on the mix!
Now, AutoHotkey is not the easy to use next utility to do some job. It is a full programming language, and has already some learning curve. People serious about programming should indeed know some rudiments of English. At least because keywords are in English. Microsoft has made the error to translate VBA keywords to French (and some other major languages), but it was more trouble than help, and they came back from this idea.
Now, I see French communities of programmers with members knowing nearly nothing to English, able to do some work (mostly in VB...). But they are handicapped because they cut themselves from a huge amount of reference.
Note that you can have base understanding of a language, enough for general understanding, but can miss some subtleties. Hey, I have to read carefully (and often!) to understand the scope rules of functions... Having a good reference in your language can help, here.
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majkinetor
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You should have answered in the new topic...

I don't think so. I don't have nothing against this if somebody want to do it, so I can't complain on new topic. I wouldn't complain if smb wanted to create refrigerator in AHK on its separate thread. But I complain here, as this topic is about something else, witch IMO should NOT include such things.


Microsoft has made the error to translate VBA keywords to French (and some other major languages), but it was more trouble than help, and they came back from this idea.

LOL
Ah... Frenchmen... they are so sorry french language isn't number one like it was once in old times (at least when politics was in question). But translating VB to french, that is oh so funny.


Note that you can have base understanding of a language, enough for general understanding, but can miss some subtleties. Hey, I have to read carefully (and often!) to understand the scope rules of functions...

Of course. I also sometimes have hard times understanding something. But that is MY problem. I read and I read again and read again, and if nothing help I come to the forum and ask smb to explain me.

But to insist everybody adapt to YOU instead of YOU adapting to community is uber selfish.

I also realised selfish behavior of many members of this community: scripts are badly documented (its functionality) often it requires from you too take great deal of investigation just to be able to see what it does. There are tones of scripts that should be functions but very few ppl around want to expose their work to other people. That is why I am against matcho programing popularised by short code camp (for example, corrupt told me that he understands nonsence constructs present in CMDRet function to fill struct parameters, he even had will to argue that it is cool like that, despite the obvious facts that such thing is obfuscation). People should think more about community and less about themselves. On long run they will have less work, but somehow that is not understood.

Some interesting philosophy that goes along with some things I mention:

Philosophy

Matz's primary design consideration is to make programmers happy by reducing the menial work they must do, following the principles of good user interface design. He stresses that systems design needs to emphasize human, rather than computer, needs:
Often people, especially computer engineers, focus on the machines. They think, "By doing this, the machine will run faster. By doing this, the machine will run more effectively. By doing this, the machine will something something something." They are focusing on machines. But in fact we need to focus on humans, on how humans care about doing programming or operating the application of the machines. We are the masters. They are the slaves.

Ruby is said to follow the principle of least surprise (POLS), meaning that the language typically behaves intuitively or as the programmer assumes it should. The phrase did not originate with Matz and, generally speaking, Ruby may more closely follow a paradigm best termed as "Matz's Least Surprise", though many programmers have found it to be close to their own mental model as well.

Matz defined it this way in an interview:
Everyone has an individual background. Someone may come from Python, someone else may come from Perl, and they may be surprised by different aspects of the language. Then they come up to me and say, 'I was surprised by this feature of the language, so Ruby violates the principle of least surprise.' Wait. Wait. The principle of least surprise is not for you only. The principle of least surprise means principle of least my surprise. And it means the principle of least surprise after you learn Ruby very well. For example, I was a C++ programmer before I started designing Ruby. I programmed in C++ exclusively for two or three years. And after two years of C++ programming, it still surprised me.


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PhiLho
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While we are talking philosophy on program design (which isn't so much out of topic...), I recommend this reading: The Selfish Class.
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majkinetor
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Very interesting

Thx for sharing
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Thalon
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@majkinetor
To keep it short: Yes, you can post any doubts in the other topic to keep this important thread clean.

If you think that translations are only for selfish-people I would like to close "Ask for help" in general, because most of them are "selfish", because all the answers are in the help-file (except few).
Chris could also stop to maintain help, because all answers can be found in source-code of Autohotkey, too.
(or, god forbid, he could stop to develop AHK, because all could write this functions by themself - to selfish to read MSDN?)
I don't see much differences there, so it's your personal choice where to draw the line.

For me a german help is valueable due to the fact that I can read german faster than english so I do not have to spend so much time on rereading difficult topics (especially if they are already difficult in german).
Another point for a german help is that there are more than 100 million people speaking german as their native language and many of them do not need english ever in their normal live. Yes, a REAL programmer has to know english, but I see no reason for people which want to automate only little tasks (for the initial target of Autohotkey I guess).

Replies to this post please in the other thread - I'll edit the topic to get the discussion fitting their...

Thalon

majkinetor
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Yes, you can post any doubts in the other topic to keep this important thread clean.

It seems that you didn't understand reasons why I posted here and not on new thread.

If you think that translations are only for selfish-people I would like to close "Ask for help" in general, because...

Your "because"es are nothing but exaggerations.
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Thalon
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Yes, you can post any doubts in the other topic to keep this important thread clean.

It seems that you didn't understand reasons why I posted here and not on new thread.

I did understand your reason, but it is also completely offtopic, because my post only fits the last point of the topic and there is only "mention" in the sentence.
If it is worth for AHK I think Chris can decide himself.
As the translation-topic was started by me, I think all discussions depending it should also take their place there!
I answer the second part in the other topic. This is the last post here..

Thalon

xXJa50nXx
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For the built in ping would it be wrong to use

System("ping");

I dont see a problem but there might be some thing im not seeing.

Every windows computer comes with it right?

And i havent dug that deeply into the source code of ahk but does it just read the file line by line and use a if statement do what it says?

Jason

majkinetor
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StdLib will most definetely require lot of API calls as the performance will among the other things be the highest priority for standard library and as some things can not be done in language itself.

So, Chirs, can you provide at least #defines so we can do this like it should be done. Stdlib should be well defined by advanced users in discussion on related thread, but in such a project we would definitely need some language support, and I think #define will basicly solve bunch of problems. As I suggest using Namespace patterns, like stdlib_math, stdlib_string etc..., it will also be well used defining alternative names by the users for long function names, like

#define stdlib_string_reverse as StrReverse


This can be even provided by stdlib itself like separate include file for easier usage, for instance you could say

#include stdlib_string ;use long names, but prevent naming collision
#include stdlib_string_short ;use short names (remove stdlib_string_)

After that I think that some of us can be involved in interface planning of stdlib.
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Chris
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I don't think ping is as simple as system("ping") [maybe in Unix or PHP you can do that]. But then again I don't know much about it.

So, Chirs, can you provide at least #defines so we can do this like it should be done.
...
need some language support, and I think #define will basicly solve bunch of problems

Volunteers are in short supply, so they are probably the biggest thing missing right now. The #define/macro/preprocessor feature will probably get implemented, but I don't know when.

As I suggest using Namespace patterns, like stdlib_math, stdlib_string etc..., it will also be well used defining alternative names by the users for long function names, like

#define stdlib_string_reverse as StrReverse

This can be even provided by stdlib itself like separate include file for easier usage, for instance you could say

#include stdlib_string ;use long names, but prevent naming collision
#include stdlib_string_short ;use short names (remove stdlib_string_)

Interesting, but might be more complicated than it's worth. I'm a strong proponent of the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid). So I think something really basic like the following would be fine:

#include <string\reverse> ; Include the StrReverse() function.

Of course, some files could contain more than one function, such as a group of strongly-related functions.

majkinetor!
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Not very nice if you have to import 20 or more functions...

Chris
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I haven't given it enough though yet, but as we both mentioned, some of the include files can contain more than one function (such as a collection of strongly related functions).