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www.autohotkey.de


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jonny
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So... tired... ok, sorry. I hope there's no more "unexpected delays." :lol:

Anyway, tomorrow, I have some time, so I guess I'll try to get to it then... but this time I won't make any promises. I'm reasonably sure that I can do it, though. New and improved www.autohotkey.de will be here by this time tomorrow if I do manage to get to it! Thanks for everyone's help so far!

toralf
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@jonny: You are not taking to much control. Since it is your server you have the control. Thank you for the offer to open it, but I have to refuse. I do not have the ability (time and knowledge) to help you in this case. Another reason: My wife is getting angry at me already for spending so much time in this forum. :)

@All
I think Arnes and Jonnys idea with the frames is brilliant. Here is a suggestion of how it could look like

--------------|
|             | [EN] [DE] [ES] [FR]   [Translation Mode]
|             | Search [              ] []words []pharse
|    A H K    |-----------------------------------------
|             |
|   L O G O   |
|             |
--------------|    Main-Frame
              |
 Home         |    Contents:
              |
 Download     |      1) HTML Page in the right language
              |      or
 Changelog    |      2) Translation Frame:
              |
 Support      |        |---------------------------------------
              |        |                  |                    
 Quick-Start  |        |  English         |   [DE] [ES] [FR]
    Tutorial  |        |                  |                    
              |        |---------------------------------------
 Forum        |        |                  |                    
              |        |  HTML Page in    |   HTML Page in
 Documentation|        |    English       |     selected
  -Command    |        |                  |     language
    Reference |        |                  |
  -Quick-Start|        |                  |
    Tutorial  |        |                  |
  -HotKeys    |        |                  |
  -HotStrings |        |                  |
  -Scripts    |       
  -Keyboard,  |       
    Mouse and |       
    Joystick  |       
  -Showcases  |       
  -FAQ        |       
  -Notes for  |       
    AutoIt2   |       
    User      |       
              |       
              |       
      Imprint |       
              |       

Remarks:
- for the [EN] [DE] etc. flag icons could be used.
- the navigation frame on the left is always visible (except for the forum) and showing your current position by color
- we should agree on a naming convention for the files. My suggestion:
english pages do not have a postfix (they stay like they currently are):
index.htm
hotkeys.htm

pages with translations get a language postfix:
index_de.htm
hotkeys_de.htm

translation pages (just a frame page that calls the english and translated page) doesn't have a language postfix but a "_translation":
hotkeys_translation.htm
Unfortunately I do not know how to program this. My very basic HTML knowledge is 8 years old and dusty. And I never used frames. So any suggestions and help is appreciated.

@Chris: How do you like such a frame page with navigation for your AHK site. Because it only makes sense, that we continue on this, when you are willing to apply it also to the AHK page.

For the time being we (but mainly Jonny and Arne, I'm afraid) could set up an example page on Jonnys server. As soon as we know how it works nicely and we`re satisfied, this could be applied to the official AHK page (assuming Chris approves).

Just my 5 cents. :)
Ciao
toralf
 
I use the latest AHK version (1.1.15+)
Please ask questions in forum on ahkscript.org. Why?
For online reference please use these Docs.

BoBo
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A wiki/Wiki ? Just in case someone didn't know what the hell we're talking about ...

Description availalable in the following languages (go to the english page and check the lower left section for a language which fits your needs)

Afrikaans
العربية
Български
Català
Dansk
[Deutsch]
[English]
Esperanto
Español
Eesti
فارسی
Suomi
Føroyskt
Français
Gaeilge
Galego
עברית
Hrvatski
Magyar
Interlingua
Bahasa Indonesia
Italiano
日本語
한국어
Lëtzebuergesch
Lietuvių
Bân-lâm-gú
Bahasa Melayu
Nederlands
Norsk
Polski
Português
Русский
Simple English
Slovenščina
Српски / Srpski
Svenska
Tatarça
Українська
Tiếng Việt
中文

8)

BoBo
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Hi Kollegas,
unseren Enthusiasmus in allen Ehren, doch ich denke wir sollten hier nicht "das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten". Die Maxime: KISS (keep it stupid simple/keep it simple, stupid) hat ihre Berechtigung.

Die Realisierung hochfliegender Ambitionen ist die eine Seite, doch die weitere Unterhaltung/Wartung/Aktualisierung von Web-Auftritten die eigentliche (zeitintensive) Herausforderung.

Wir alle kennen Pages mit: "Letzte Aktualisierung 31.02.1992" :lol:
----
Toralf hat bereits die "soziale Komponente" (Frau/Mann/Freund(in) und Kind&Kegel) angesprochen.

Wer also nicht www.autohotkey.de als 51 Methode benutzen möchte um seine "bessere Hälfte" loszuwerden (Paul Simon: "50 ways to leave your lover"), sollte ein natürliches Interesse an "weniger ist mehr" haben. :wink:

Damit ich hier nicht rausgehe mit "Thema verfehlt. Setzen. Sechs"
Ich spreche von der finalen Bereitstellung der www.autohotkey.de !
Sollten sich obige Vorschläge ausschließlich auf die Bereitstellung einer Entwicklungsumgebung beziehen, spricht nichts dagegen, wobei diese Anstrengungen dann auch von jenen realisiert werden sollten, welche sie vorschlagen. Sonst produzieren wir hier nur heisse Luft ... :roll: :wink:

Danke fürs zuhören.

Fortsetzung folgt ...

English:
IMHO any effort regarding a "foreign"-language adoption of autohotkey.com, should focus on KISS (keep it stupid simple) to ensure that maintenance and support can be done without any hassle.
Special thanks to Jonny & Chris for their support :D


toralf
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Agreed.
Ciao
toralf
 
I use the latest AHK version (1.1.15+)
Please ask questions in forum on ahkscript.org. Why?
For online reference please use these Docs.

Chris
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you'll see that I've added an English/Amerycan Flag

Thanks for the link. Since some visitors might have screen resolution 800x600, maybe it can be moved somewhere to the left. Of course, if we decide to do frames, it will be easy.

I've uploaded the above mentioned flags (zipped). Unfortunately the us&uk flag wasn't included so it's separate (usuk.gif).

Although I like the colorful flags because you can spot your language more easily at a glance, other ideas are welcome (e.g. Change Language: [EN] [DE]).

If Chris is open to redesign, that's great, but if not, I'd much rather we stick with the current design, not only to help the translators but to help the users too.

I've never used frames in a page design. I've a vague impression that they're discouraged, though that might just be because they are overused or used incorrectly.

I think Arnes and Jonnys idea with the frames is brilliant. Here is a suggestion of how it could look like

That's a nice layout and I can see that it's better than the current one in some ways.

the navigation frame on the left is always visible (except for the forum) and showing your current position by color
Because it only makes sense, that we continue on this, when you are willing to apply it also to the AHK page.

I prefer simple sites (partially because I have only very basic HTML skills). That is why currently, the site simply omits the page you're on from the navigation links at the top. But if anyone knows a simply way to design the above so that it retains compatibility with all browsers and loads quickly, please let me know.

Should the public ftp account remain completely separated from the main domain?
Should the main domain be open to all temporarily? or
Should I open the main domain on a per-person basis, i.e. to AGU and toralf, etc.?

I think it's good to have a semi-public drop area for files that others contribute (perhaps a wiki will someday replace this). For the main domain, I recommend that at least one bilingual volunteer be given access (assuming there is someone willing to take on some level of responsibility for it, which might be doubtful).

a separate www.autohotkey.de forum

Interesting. I can help you set up the forum if you feel there is enough interest. The steps used to set up a phpbb forum are probably similar to those used to set up a wiki.

Thanks everyone.

Edit: fixed typo "loads quickly"

AGermanUser
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As I said, I am expirienced a little bit in HTML Programming. That's why I want to drop in that frames have a lot of disadvantages. Here a little quote from http://www.tamingthe... ... frames.htm.

Hier eine deutsche Seite über die Nachteile von Frames:
http://www.michael-p... ... chten.html

1.) Many search engines cannot index framed sites. Because the home page is merely a frame, with very little content or hyperlinks to follow, search engine spiders may stop dead on the page and have 'nothing to report'. A way around this is the proper implementation of Meta tags and use of the "noframes" tag. (See further resources at the end of this article)

2.) If a search engine does manage to spider your site, visitors from search engines may land on the content pages, rather than the full-framed version, i.e. they may arrive on your site and all they will see is the menu bar! For a work-around for this issue, see further resources at the end of this article)

3.) Non-frames capable browsers. Fortunately, only 1% of visitors' browsers fall into this category. Once again the use of the 'noframes' tag will assist, but to be used effectively you basically need to create two sites, one framed, one not - the "time saving" is suddenly gone.

4.) Bookmarking. A visitor cannot bookmark a specific page in your site without requiring additional customised scripting for each page. Even then there is a risk of visitors landing on the content frame, with no navigation frames to view.

5.) Visitor opinion. Many find frames annoying.

6.) Copyright issues. You'll need to ensure that all links within your site that point to external sources open in a new window to avoid copyright wrangles. There have been legal precedents in relation to this issue. Many site owners object to their content appearing in someone else's frame, to the point that special "frame busting" code is used.

7.) Internal linking. Special attention will need to be paid to your internal links to ensure that any page pointing to, for example, the home page opens as a "whole page", otherwise the framed home page will appear in the target window, causing confusion to visitors.

8.) Printing issues. Visitors need to take further steps within their print settings to ensure the information they want is printed correctly. In most cases, a full page cannot be printed as displayed on the screen, only in sections corresponding to the frame.

9.) Scroll bars, divider bars. If your framed site uses a number of frames, scroll bars can prove to be unsightly. These can be removed, but check compatibility with other popular browsers. (See further resources at the end of this article)

10.) External linkages to your site. If other sites wish to link to specific pages in your site, it is more difficult for them to do so.

11.) Refresh/Reload problems. Again, special care needs to be taken with coding otherwise when a visitor tries to refresh a particular page, they may be taken back to the original frameset. A common problem.


So I agree with Chris about a rather simple HTML design. The current design looks good to me. Why change it? In my eyes the frames thing should only be a help for translators to compare the quality of the translation. In case everybody agrees with the translation of a page we should save it somewhere. And there we would collect all translated static pages like tutorial_de.htm, download_de.htm, ...
In the end all sites are translated an can be combined to a autohotkey.de project.

But the best thing is still - and I'm sorry to say :wink: a wiki. A rather simple syntax. No html experience required. New users can add their share very uncomplicated. Collaborative work.

In my eyes the goal of my dreams whould be, that Chris provides a wiki instead of the current page. This would have many advantages. He could add his own content very easily without using html. Other english speaking users could help him.

And on the other hand a german wiki for the translated sites. But perhaps there would also be a possibility to design the index page of the wiki with the mentioned flags and link to the translated site which could be put in the english wiki, too. I don't know so much about wiki to say if this is possible or not.

Finally another example wiki I found by google. Just to show, that it looks similar to toralfs proposal. A logo, navigation, ...

http://www.thinkwiki.org/ThinkWiki

EDIT

Btw. the author of the above wiki offers two languages of the same wiki. Hmm, so it's possible. See Navigation - last point - Other languages.
I don't know how he does this. But it works :)

Arne
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If you're only worrying about search engines,
I thik I can help you!

create:
robots.txt:
User-agent: *
Disallow:frame1.htm
Disallow:frame2.htm
Disallow:frame3.htm

And insert to the Index:
<div style="position:absolute; left:-500px; top:20px;">
<h1>AutoHotkey</h1>
<h1>.........replace some words the spider shall find</h1>
</div>

Arne


PS.: wie alt seid ihr eigentlich? <-- sollt jetzt nicht antworten!
(Meinet nur, weil Toralf was von seiner Frau geschrieben hat)
Ich bin gerade mal 14.

BoBo
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So I agree with Chris about a rather simple HTML design. The current design looks good to me. Why change it?

Confirmed. :D

toralf
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Arne just asked hold we are. He's 14.
I'm turning 33 this year.
Yeah, I know, a pretty old guy in your eys (and form the number itself). So please, don't pick on it.
Ciao
toralf
 
I use the latest AHK version (1.1.15+)
Please ask questions in forum on ahkscript.org. Why?
For online reference please use these Docs.

AGermanUser
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I'm 27 Years old.

@Arne
Nicht nur wg. der Suchmaschine. Auch wegen der Problematik Ausdrucke, Bookmarks, der komplizierten internen Verlinkung und der Gefahr über die Suchmaschine auf eine Unterseite zu gelangen, wo dann die Navigation fehlt.

Arne
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@A German User:
Wegen der Gefahr auf die Unterseiten zu gelangen, will
Ich ja robots.txt benutzen. Diese Datei wird von Such maschienen
ausgelesen (sofern vorhanden), und sagt diesen, welche Seiten
(Dateien) sie einbeziehen darf oder auch nicht.

@all:
What about a index wit this?
It will stop after the 2 flaggs had been displayed.
and you can click them to choose your language.

Posted Image

arne

PS.: if you use a modem with 56k like me it won't look very nice the first
time the animation is displayed.

toralf
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Too much animation for my taste. I like simple text pages better.
Ciao
toralf
 
I use the latest AHK version (1.1.15+)
Please ask questions in forum on ahkscript.org. Why?
For online reference please use these Docs.

jonny
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Geez, I can't leave you guys for a few hours... :lol: :lol:

Anyway, I'll make my opinion on the frames clear:
[*:2f7do4v3]It's a good idea for translation, and I can see how it will help; however, as AGU articulated, it's not the best way to design a webpage.
[*:2f7do4v3]I still hope to have a frames page, but it will neither be the main page nor will it be linked to on the main page. It will be a separate url, so it will be entirely transparent to the casual user. It might not even exist once this project has a satisfactory result.
Once I get to the website, I will look further into both phpBB and Wiki implementation. A separate forum would save English and German scripters alike from any more confusion; however, there's still the problem of a German-speaking moderator.

As for the idea of an English wiki, I'm still undecided. I think that if we did manage to get a German wiki up, it would also make sense to have a parallel English one, but I'm not sure if it should replace the main page entirely.

@Arne: I think we should stick with Chris' philosophy of a simple design. Currently, the only inbuilt animated pictures on this site are the forum smileys, and there's hardly any pictures on here anyway. An opening animation doesn't have a noticable advantage over a simple language bar, and it's distracting.

BoBo
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@ Chris, Jonny
I've slightly modified AHK's index page to provide links to language related sites, which looks quite the same as the image I've posted already on: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:16 pm - (this thread page 2).

File is available on J's FTP:
FileName: AutoHotkey_Index_USUK_BoBo_01.htm
Images: usuk.gif; gm.gif
Linked to: docs/images

8)