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Lexikos
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the problem with this is the errant assumption that the same problems will arrise for users with both the old version and ahk_l.

I am certain that users of one build will (and have) run into problems that apply equally to the other build, and that users will write scripts that work on both. Splitting the help and/or scripts forums would be counter-productive for at least this reason.

if this (no separate forum) is in factt hen ahk_l needs to officially become v2 and stop being refered to so separately

AutoHotkey_L will always be a separate project, whatever name you give it.

(Edit: Shame on me for continuing this off-topic discussion...)

sinkfaze
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AutoHotkey_L will always be a separate project, whatever name you give it.


With all due respect, your separate project is being presented on the home page as if it is the original's continuation. And leaving it up to the users to figure how to explain to us what "project" they are using kind of runs contradictory to the spirit we're all try to encourage at the forums. Either we revert previous decisions or we make due with the new situations as they are.

(Edit: Shame on me for continuing this off-topic discussion...)


It's not off-topic, the whole reason this came about is because of the AHK_L sticky being one in S&F, where the topic of stickies and was at issue.

guest3456
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AutoHotkey_L will always be a separate project, whatever name you give it.


With all due respect, your separate project is being presented on the home page as if it is the original's continuation. And leaving it up to the users to figure how to explain to us what "project" they are using kind of runs contradictory to the spirit we're all try to encourage at the forums. Either we revert previous decisions or we make due with the new situations as they are.


i agree wholeheartedly. the ambiguation as to whether AHK_L is the successor or not is the problem behind all of these threads..

jaco0646
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AHK_L is the successor. Period. Undeniably, unequivocally, unambiguously, categorically, without question, AHK_L is the successor. Whether you want to call it a continuation versus a separate project makes no difference to the fact that it is now the preferred download. AHK Basic is a deprecated software while it transitions to an archived state. Transitions are always problematic. There is no way to avoid this difficulty. AHK Basic was no stranger to problems itself when transitioning from one version to another. It took at least a year after the While loop was introduced before the Help forum stopped getting posts from users with older versions who couldn’t run current scripts.

...concerns that the community will be split are overblown...

I think concerns that the current Help forum can't handle this transition are overblown. It's only been a month officially, but in reality this transition has been taking place for years. I regularly see excellent examples of the advantages of AHK_L, when such are warranted in a thread; and even more regularly I see threads where the issue doesn't even arise, and problems are solved like they've always been.

AHK_L should have its own dedicated forum in the forums since it is now being touted as the "official" version.

I find this idea contradictory. Essentially, it says AHK_L should be separate because it is equal (it would make more sense to me to create a separate forum for AHK Basic, called legacy support; but this is all just fantasizing: the forums will not be separated). I would rather talk specifically about sticky topics, as that is something we can agree on and implement immediately. I have un-stickied the AHK_L thread from the Help forum, since its purpose is divisive. It implies the entire forum is not for AHK_L, which Chris has clearly stated is the case. I suggest the AHK_L thread be un-stickied from S&F for the same reason. The Wish List and Bug Reports forums are now used for the main purpose it used to have.

jethrow
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I have un-stickied the AHK_L thread from the Help forum, since its purpose is divisive. It implies the entire forum is not for AHK_L, which Chris has clearly stated is the case.

The purpose of that thread is to help those who had thought about trying AHK_L, but who are leery to even try. I had figured the thread might be active for maybe 6 months. It was never meant to be a central ground for AHK_L questions. Do you think it should be renamed? I personally don't care if the thread is Sticky or not.

SoLong&Thx4AllTheFish
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I've consolidated those GUI stickies into a prototype for future stickies there. Have a look and see what you think. I've also changed the title of the Wiki/Rosetta thread (again).


I like it, although I don't think hotkeycamo should be listed as it is a third party app, closed source and nobody can be sure it doesn't contain anything "naughty".

Tuncay
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The Link: <!-- m -->http://www.autohotke... ... isting#GUI<!-- m --> could be added to the sticky Gui thread in S&F section.

I think the title "Notable Gui Programs" does not encourage to visit that thread. And also it looks like as there would be recommendation for thirdparty software. I only "say" what I think right now. It does not look good to me. May I propose some other titles? To catch someones eye the word Gui should be placed at begin of title. Then identifieng and differentiating with other threads is much easier.
[*:3tkdxz4n]GUI - Look first here
[*:3tkdxz4n]GUI stuff and helper tools
[*:3tkdxz4n]GUI related scripts
[*:3tkdxz4n]GUI - Thread collectionAs a sidenote, the other sticky threads starts all with AutoHotkey word. This looks a bit cheap and similar. More suggestion:
[*:3tkdxz4n]GUI related scripts: Notable programs
[*:3tkdxz4n].NET - IronAHK: Cross platform
[*:3tkdxz4n]New AutoHotkey: More features than AHK Basic
[*:3tkdxz4n]DLL build of AutoHotkey: Embed into other applications
[*:3tkdxz4n]Wiki for us: Everyone is welcome!Also IronAhk should be unstickied until it reaches a more productive and complete stage. Many people would try it and then it does not work and may be never try it again.

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sinkfaze
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AHK_L is the successor. Period. Undeniably, unequivocally, unambiguously, categorically, without question, AHK_L is the successor.


Seems a bold statement when the creator of AHK_L just said differently.

AHK Basic is a deprecated software while it transitions to an archived state.


Would you mind telling everybody where this turn of events is explicitly stated for all new users to see? It's not on the home page, nor anywhere on the front page of the forums

You're thinking more like a programmer and less like a marketer.

I have un-stickied the AHK_L thread from the Help forum, since its purpose is divisive. It implies the entire forum is not for AHK_L, which Chris has clearly stated is the case.


jaco, please, quit taking actions based upon accusations you have no basis for. The problem isn't whether the sticky is divisive, the handling of this "transition" is the divisive problem. It has been mishandled from day one and we're trying to develop a better strategy that needs to be heard out for the sake of the brand. In the meantime you're busy taking an axe to others' efforts to compensate for this lack of forethought as if it's helping. It's not, it's creating more division, not less.

SoLong&Thx4AllTheFish
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sinkfaze
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My interest in the project has dropped off, and my involvement will probably continue to be low. Therefore I've altered the website to give AutoHotkey_L more of the attention it deserves (most importantly the download page). Source http://www.autohotke...pic.php?t=63474


[Note]


You're making my point for me, hugo. The one thing a new user has to point to to know what's going on, little as even it is, is hidden!

The rest is common logic, as AHK_L continues to evolve, the chance of AHK Basic catching up will decrease, so yes, no matter how you are describing it AHK_L - whatever its named - is the successor (unless development is stopped in the very near future).


And again, Lexikos' own words contradict that. If experienced users are having this much trouble reading what's plainly written about a subject, what exactly is the new user to do?

But lets keep this thread about stickies.


And yet again, this is about stickies, at least it was until jaco decided the forums were his personal pile of firewood that he can chop away at as he pleases when his personal vision of unity is at stake.

You have done nothing to deter any viewpoint that how this "transition" is being handled is appropriate for AHK now or in the future. There is clearly disagreement within the community and it needs to be addressed is a fashion other than "I'm the mod and I said so".

SoLong&Thx4AllTheFish
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And again, Lexikos' own words contradict that. If experienced users are having this much trouble reading what's plainly written about a subject, what exactly is the new user to do?


Successor v separate project. I don't see the difference apart from the semantics :wink:

And yet again, this is about stickies, at least it was until jaco decided the forums were his personal pile of firewood that he can chop away at as he pleases when his personal vision of unity is at stake.


Sorry, but I don't think that is fair, as far as I know jaco0646 usually indicates what he has done and why (see other discussions and flames about this on the forum) other admins do things we may not like and we don't know who to contact about it. (we don't know who has hidden the announcement section for example)

Note: I will stay out of this thread or any other discussion about stickies, AutoHotkey versions etc as I don't like where this is going so won't comment any further.

I like fewer stickies and I don't care about which AutoHotkey version someone prefers to use or promote.

tank
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A couple of important facts
first while the Announcements are hidden they are accessable. It was in fact STUPID to hide it in the first place what purpose did hiding it serve.

Next FACT:
No matter what is stickied n00bs wont read them. so stickies should be more for the forum helpers as a quick way to find commonly referenced material any how. let me repeat.
Since NOOBS wont Read them Stickies are for the forum helpers to quickly find reference material
Its simple really they arent going to search or read any how we might as well make it easy for the most helpfull helpers to find thier most commonly referenced materials rather than forcing them to syc thier favs up on the various machines they may use (i have 6).


Recent polls have demonstrated quite effectively that only the forum regulars and helpers are the only ones sho also use the forum threads to keep up on current events. so this i think even further re inforces my point on who exactly the stickies are for.

Jaco you know i hope i have supported your (apparently) renagade methods against the wishes of some other mods and this IS a subject that needs to be discussed. but untill the home page and lexikos call ahk_l ... ahk v2 or some other version number it WILL NOT be viewed as the successor. Chris in this way has muddied the water even further by not getting with Lexikos and working this out before his announcement.

the only conclusion is that Chris does not want them merged but wants to keep them separated. however muddied the water gets by keeping both in the same forum.

He may be doing this to insight rage and confusion in hopes that his concept of v2 is persued instead of AHK_L. Honestly its just a big hot mess.

He may hope Lexikos breaks away taking the majority of those that wish what chris refers to as programmers with him.

Either way its just causing an obvious rift in this community

but they should be merged in name and forum or kept split in name and forum we cant have it both ways
Never lose.
WIN or LEARN.

jaco0646
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The purpose of that thread is to help those who had thought about trying AHK_L,

I'm sorry if I implied the thread was not helpful; on the contrary, it is one of the "excellent examples of the advantages of AHK_L" I was referring to. As you said, "It was never meant to be a central ground for AHK_L questions," which is why it shouldn't be sticky. The value of its content is not questioned. I should also have noted that I proposed un-stickying it a few days ago to the other mods. Lexikos approved, and he had stickied it in the first place; so the decision to remove it was not unilateral, though it unfortunately appeared that way.

I don't think hotkeycamo should be listed as it is a third party app, closed source and nobody can be sure it doesn't contain anything "naughty".

This is an interesting point. I would like to hear more opinions about it.

I think the title "Notable Gui Programs" does not encourage to visit that thread.

I agree, it's a bad title. I had hoped someone would point that out. :) None of the other GUI titles really grabbed my attention though, either. More suggestions are welcome.

...taking actions...

Please note that the changes I've made are easily undoable. It would be the work of only a few minutes to return to the previous configuration. For this reason, I thought it would be more productive to show an idea than try to explain it. I think it's easier for people to comment on changes they can see.

Chris in this way has muddied the water even further by not getting with Lexikos and working this out before his announcement.

I agree, but I can't do anything about that. :? Also note that Chris is the only administrator. Moderators have no power to create or hide forums (which is why I don't want to discuss splitting anything up: there's nothing I can do even if I wanted to). Chris hid the announcements forum because he will no longer be using it, so there will be nothing new to see. It is available only for historical purposes.

Frankie
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I like the 'Notable GUI Programs' sticky.
I think the 'AutoHotkey has a Wiki!' title seems a little...off? I don't have any better ideas other than what it was before, witch was fine imo.
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sinkfaze
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Successor v separate project. I don't see the difference apart from the semantics :wink:


Please appreciate the context of what transpired earlier in the thread:

if this (no separate forum) is in factt hen ahk_l needs to officially become v2 and stop being refered to so separately

AutoHotkey_L will always be a separate project, whatever name you give it.


I am not misinterpreting what was said. There is no successor of AHK, there is AHK and there is AHK_L. If the intent is to move AHK away to become AHK_L, then the forums need to adjust to reflect that reality. If that requires Chris to be called back in from the shadows so this can be dealt with, so be it.


Sorry, but I don't think that is fair, as far as I know jaco0646 usually indicates what he has done and why...


That's not what's at issue, what's at issue is the apparent speediness of decision-making that has suddenly stripped the forum of valuable (if makeshift) resources that are attempting something to compensate for the problems that have been dumped on the brand. The fact that jaco stated what he did and why he did it only irritates me more.

As I've said, we've all been put into a situation that really requires Chris to join us so it can be straightened out. None of us wants to see the very solid reputation AHK has developed over the years damaged by this nonsense and rushes to judgment on top of the ones that have already occurred aren't going to help.