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Make AHK_L "main" version?


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Poll: Should AHK_L be promoted as "the" main version of AutoHotkey? (128 member(s) have cast votes)

Should AHK_L be promoted as "the" main version of AutoHotkey?

  1. Voted YES (I use AHK_L) (201 votes [76.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.14%

  2. YES (I use AutoHotkey Basic) (24 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  3. NO (I use AHK_L) (8 votes [3.03%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.03%

  4. NO (I use AutoHotkey Basic) (24 votes [9.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.09%

  5. Other... (please comment) (7 votes [2.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.65%

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sumon
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Great! Thanks to you, sumon and others involved it this project for your efforts! :)
(But I don't like the fact that AutoHotkey Basic is now just AutoHotkey, and that downloads only feature that version.)


Let my clarify that I am not involved in "this", the new design is something I have never seen and you probably already know I was investigating the possibilities of making _L the main version (with continued support for basic). I'm discussing this in private with poly too, so we don't miss anything. But this came out of the blue to me.

I do not support the changes.

nimda
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sumon: polyethene has told me quite explicitly that when you said this:

Out of visitors that visit the downloads page and download either version, 62% download AHK_L, 38% download AHK_Basic.

it was an outright lie.

Is this true?

sumon
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sumon: polyethene has told me quite explicitly that when you said this:

Out of visitors that visit the downloads page and download either version, 62% download AHK_L, 38% download AHK_Basic.

it was an outright lie.

Is this true?


My statement was based off Google Analytics stats that were implemented by polyethene himself. I don't see why I would have any reason to lie about it. Is that really the way he put it? :cry:

Edit: And here are some numbers (Zizor'd from our Google Analytics account) to back it up.

fincs
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Let my clarify that I am not involved in "this", the new design is something I have never seen and you probably already know I was investigating the possibilities of making _L the main version (with continued support for basic). I'm discussing this in private with poly too, so we don't miss anything. But this came out of the blue to me.

I do not support the changes.

Interesting. I originally thought that you were involved in some way or another in the new design. Now it's clearly demonstrated that these changes constitute an abuse of power by polyethene.

For the record, these are the threads in the Developers forum related to the website/brand redesign project:[*:k8jrrmrf]AutoHotkey Nova > Project & discussion
[*:k8jrrmrf]AutoHotkey Nova > Website changelog

Bud Fud
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This list refers to "a particular act by polyethene"
People against the change: (in no real order)
============================
sumon
fragman
fincs
nimda
gwarble
IsNull
ABCza
Jethrow  (recommends AutoHotkey_L in his signature)
maul.esel
tank
Elesar
comvox
corrupt
Learning one
dmg
berban (see IRC log by nimda here: http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=526490#526490 )
BamBam4275 (see IRC log)
DetroitAutoHotkey (Likes the homepage, but "Lack of L reference not good though.")
JSLover
at least one Guest (http://www.autohotkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=526305#526305)



People neutral to an extent
============================
JamixZol (wants at least a link to other versions)
Tuncay    (see below)
Uberi     (is not happy with the change but can live with it)
jethrow   (is asking questions about the change before coming to a conclusion ; has not received answers publicly)
Rseding91 (thinks the issue is minor; has not made an explicit stance AFAICT)
yui       (wants the "internal squabbling" to stop)
Nota Bene (has asked questions ; has not received answers publicly)



People FOR the change
============================
polyethene
gargoyle888
That is all. BTW I only registered to be able to update this post.

Learning one
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Thanks for clarification sumon.

nimda
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Thank you sumon. I now see that it was polyethene who was lying.

I would ask you to revert the changes, but that would only lead to an edit war. I believe that Chris needs to be involved at this point.

Is that really the way he put it?

Here is the unaltered, raw log from cfxbot (this data is exactly as it came over the socket)
:[email protected]/intel/x-guuaefbkyspguqbt PRIVMSG #ahk :_L is stable
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :BamBam4275: polyethene: berban: it's stable and easy to use 
:[email protected]/intel/x-guuaefbkyspguqbt PRIVMSG #ahk :and easy to use as well
:[email protected]/intel/x-guuaefbkyspguqbt PRIVMSG #ahk :and has more features
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :_l didn't take off
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :it had months to prove itself 
:[email protected] PRIVMSG #ahk :polyethene: is AHK_L not stable and easy to use?
:[email protected]/web/freenode/ip.67.252.80.68 PRIVMSG #ahk :polyethene: so you're saying that AHK_L is harder to use than AHK Basic?
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :but ahk was still being downloaded in the tens of thousands
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :no it's not Uberi
:[email protected]/web/freenode/ip.67.252.80.68 PRIVMSG #ahk :polyethene: AHK_L represents MORE OF THE DOWNLOAD STATISTICS
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :infogulch: I am playing 20 questions here
:[email protected]/web/freenode/ip.70.22.200.89 PRIVMSG #ahk :polyethene: I think _L is stable enough; I agree on the ease of use issue, I think that this is important. But I'd rather tackle that specifically than throw out all the advantages of _L. I thin k that making the docs editable will help greatly with that; that way we can refine lex's sometimes cryptic and often inadequate explanations
:[email protected]/intel/x-guuaefbkyspguqbt PRIVMSG #ahk :yes buecause the downloads section still didnt really point you to _L and new users probably arel ike hrmm that must be specialized
:[email protected]/infogulch PRIVMSG #ahk :polyethene: try 200
:[email protected] PRIVMSG #ahk :polyethene: would you mind expanding on that?
:[email protected]/web/freenode/ip.67.252.80.68 PRIVMSG #ahk :[color=red]MORE OF THE DOWNLOAD STATISTICS[/color]
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :[color=red]no it doesn't nimdAHK_L[/color]
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :I have the stats
:[email protected]/web/freenode/ip.67.252.80.68 PRIVMSG #ahk :[color=red]polyethene: so sumon lied?[/color]
:[email protected]/supporter/student/titan PRIVMSG #ahk :[color=red]yes[/color]
:[email protected]/web/freenode/ip.67.252.80.68 PRIVMSG #ahk :wow
(red color for emphasis is mine)

gargoyle888
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I think Polyethene is on the right track.

I found AHK because I was looking for something simple that could help automate keystrokes. I had to hit a repetitive set of keystrokes for a poorly written program that I was forced to use at work. It was irritating and dumb so I googled "macro recorder" or some such and found AHK. AHK did the job and did it so well that I started looking for other things to do with it. Today. I'll use AHK in places I'd never have thought of before. I never would have come here looking for a replacement for perl or php. Yet, now that I know AHK, It will probably be one of the first things that I try.

I suspect that my experience is not unique. I think there are a lot of us who got on this bus a few years ago and have grown with it. Now we want more and more capability - which is reasonable - but perhaps we don't remember what it was like on our first day.

I think that Polyethene is targetting the person in need of the unique solution that is AHK. And that sounds like a rational strategy to me.

Elesar
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The issue with that argument though is that AHK_L hasn't lost any functionality, only gained.

Its just as simple for a first time user to pick up _L as basic is.

So, again, why are we limiting the functionality of AHK? There is no solid argument for the reversion to an older version of the program that has been stated to date. (If I am mistaken, please link to valid arguments in a respectful manner. "Easier to use" and "objects" are not valid. Nobody forces the use of Objects, they are simply available.)

tank
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The issue with that argument though is that AHK_L hasn't lost any functionality, only gained.

Its just as simple for a first time user to pick up _L as basic is.

So, again, why are we limiting the functionality of AHK? There is no solid argument for the reversion to an older version of the program that has been stated to date. (If I am mistaken, please link to valid arguments in a respectful manner. "Easier to use" and "objects" are not valid. Nobody forces the use of Objects, they are simply available.)

mismatched documentation would be the only valid argument but that should be easy to fix
Never lose.
WIN or LEARN.

Tuncay
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I am not really against that change. Finally, after polyethene's explanation, things look different. In fact, I understand what he is trying todo. I am just not happy with the abrupt change and encourage him at least to put a link to AHK_L on the main site.

So, I am not really against, nor fully for the change. At least, not yet.

No signature.


nimda
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mismatched documentation would be the only valid argument but that should be easy to fix

A very valid point. If I'm not mistaken, migrating the docs from l.autohotkey.net to autohotkey.com would not take very long.

fincs
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mismatched documentation would be the only valid argument but that should be easy to fix

A very valid point. If I'm not mistaken, migrating the docs from l.autohotkey.net to autohotkey.com would not take very long.

Exactly. As I stated in my rather lengthy reply to polyethene's explanation, the best thing we can do is to give Lexikos write access to autohotkey.com, and finally replace AutoHotkey Basic with AutoHotkey_L, including the documentation (after removing the _L suffix, of course).

I am just... honestly stunned by polyethene's recent behaviour. Not only he has bypassed the existing efforts at modernizing the website, he has also broken the consensus on this very thread about promoting _L to official status, imposing instead his own view on the issue & not listening to the community. This is de-facto a coup d'état, disapproved of by the other site administrator. The only way out of this recent crisis is restoring the site back to its previous state, then making a collective decision about the future of AutoHotkey, starting with the already open "AutoHotkey Nova" project. Chris should definitely intervene now.

Open message to AutoHotkey Basic users: calm down and do not be afraid of AutoHotkey_L. Using it does not require you to learn about new features such as objects and COM. You can still do things as you used to, with some additional (and optional) bonuses. It's still perfectly marketable as an automation tool with hotkeys.

nimda
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I am just... honestly stunned by polyethene's recent behaviour. Not only he has bypassed the existing efforts at modernizing the website, he has also broken the consensus on this very thread about promoting _L to official status, imposing instead his own view on the issue & not listening to the community. This is de-facto a coup d'état, disapproved of by the other site administrator. The only way out of this recent crisis is restoring the site back to its previous state, then making a collective decision about the future of AutoHotkey, starting with the already open "AutoHotkey Nova" project.

He has also slandered the other site administrator.

gwarble
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You should specify being against the removal of _L without basic being brought back to active development is different than being against the design/modernization effort of the frontpage

The site design should be independant from decisions of this magnitude