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Changes? - counter-announcement by sumon


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sumon
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In short, this is an announcement that the AutoHotkey Nova project has been halted due to unforeseen obstacles. I'm ready to proceed, but I don't want to be a part of "this" (the changes polyethene is doing without asking, and the way he is handling the issue). I'm ready to help, when I can - and when I can with the support of the community.

As most of you are aware, Polyethene has decided to move forth with the website redesign project by himself and has begun implementing some changes. Originally, Chris intended to move over site ownership to Polyethene, and have me lead the redesign project of the well needed new website for AutoHotkey. I proceeded systematically, announced the project and its' goals, and started making some research in the controversial question of whether or not to start promoting a single version of AutoHotkey as "recommended" to alleviate the problems of having multiple versions to support in Ask for help, making it difficult for new users to download and install AutoHotkey, and more issues.

On the 5th of April polyethene out of the blue decided that the progress was too slow, and wanted to speed things up. So, he redesigned the main homepage, and announced this change along with his decision to accomodate only one version of AutoHotkey, removing the installer for AutoHotkey_L and the references to it. Although the site design is in my opinion a very good suggestion, and the "one download button" is a good idea, I very much oppose the way these changes were implemented and how _L was removed despite all arguments instead speaking for using it as the recommended version. He did those changes without asking me, without asking the community.

Rage arose, especially since people learned that this was indeed a non-planned, "drastic", one-man change by the main site administrator. Ever since, the General forums have been a place of vivid debate over why these changes were made, if they were made in an inproper way, what could be done about it, and if polyethene was insane. Posts have been moved around, threads have been locked and polyethene has still not commented on the issue publically. It may also be mentioned that I tried to "save the situation" by revoking the most drastic change (the removal of _L), but poly could not be reasoned with and considered his addition of a link to alternative versions and forks of AutoHotkey to suffice - so he overwrote my change, and started merging posts into this topic - eliminating much of the critique.

I have spoken to him in private (IRC), and it is clear that these changes are not unintentional - he believes his way to be the best way forward for the community. In all honesty I'll mention that he believes: A) That these changes are going to help make AutoHotkey a beginner's friendly place, B) That he does not care how his actions are perceived by the community, C) That he is honoring Chris' original work and helping the community by removing _L as much as possible. I disagree, and that's all I can do at this point. He is the main site administrator, and although I would very much like to contribute to the vision of the future for AutoHotkey, I can not do so without the support of the site administrator. If polyethene wants to explain himself further to the community, I have recommended him to do so but he may choose not to.

My suggestions for the changes and moving forward stand fast at what I had in mind a week ago (see my announcement). If you want me to elaborate I can do that.

I also want to give an advice to the community: Remain calm (the world's not going to end, even if this is going to be some interesting days on the forums), but make your voices heard. Even if polyethene may choose not to listen, discussion is always constructive, and hopefully something good can come out of it.

Edit: Moved to General chat on request by polyethene. // sumon

fincs
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Thanks for explaining.

We certainly do NOT want a war on this site; it would be the coup de grâce of AutoHotkey's demise. It is increasingly clear that polyethene is unfit for the job, and should be removed from his post; because he is trying to forcefully impose his view, no matter which is it, on this community; causing rage, division into factions, flamewars and a struggle of power. The best thing that we can do is to have Chris restore the status quo and proceed with the already open dialogued ways to redesign the AutoHotkey site and brand. True, the process may be slower; but the result would be better, as there would be a community-wide consensus.

polyethene, if you are reading this, we'd like to honestly ask you to think about the consequences of your actions. We know that you want the best for AutoHotkey, but the current events say otherwise.

IsNull
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fincs, I think you misunderstood the current situation.

Polyethene has the right to do here what ever he wants. You can not remove the owner of the site from his post. Further, there is no public discussion anymore, if AHK_L should be pushed or not.
Edit: Occasionally, there might be one again, so there may be a chance.

We know that you want the best for AutoHotkey, but the current events say otherwise.

I'm sure that Poly is aware that there will be much of advanced members leaving, but this exactly fits in the new marketing strategy: AHK is a easy language, for non programmers, thus you and any other advanced member is not really needed anymore.

I think, we should move the AHK_L Community to another place, with another new Vision in mind. The new AHK Basic Vision has no space for either you nor me, than anyone else using the advanced features of AHK_L. Maybe the idea of "Autohotkey Pro" is not that wrong, it seems to be the best thing we can do now. There we can continue the efforts made by sumon and co.

I would offer full support for this step, because this is the only way we can hold the AHK_L people together.
Anyway, I think here is no longer the place, where this should be discussed. If enough people show interest, I can provide a first place where the new situation can be discussed.

tinku99
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Looks like the link to L is back on the main download page.
I am sure any one using the forum would not go long without finding it anyway.
Would be funny if L became taboo on tHis forum as ahk itself was on autoit forums.

If there is a new forum, I would hope that its forum archives be available under a cc license like one stackoverflow uses.

A fork is unnecessary, but would definitely succeed. Intermediate users would follow advanced users. Newbies would follow the people that can help them. I don't see Chris or poly answering all the newbies questions themselves.

Frankie
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Over the past few years, many have tried to change the site. So they would get some general ideas, and post them to a thread for community review and opinions. After pages and pages of discussion about how the redesign should look, feel, and work; nothing was done. The member that started the movement would, inevitably, run short on time in their life. The project gets dropped. The site remains the same.

Because I've seen that so many times, and talked with the individuals in some depth about it, I honestly believe that if Poly didn't make a change like this, nothing would happen... ever.

I'm not taking sides here. You can take that in either a, "a bad change would never happen", or in a "a good change would never happen" - kind of way.
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I would like an outside place for discussion... posts/threads being edited/moved/locked/merged is something i've never seen on this forum, and it is too stifling to any real discussion when controlled by someone apparently out of control

I dont know where you all are from, but in america at least, we value our free speech very highly



I haven't really seen it addressed, and until now avoided any personal questions regarding or toward polyethene, but there's what appears to be a conflict of interest as well (him being the creator of ironAHK if im not mistaken) that could easily be perceived as motivation for his recent actions ("iron cant claim to be platform-independant version of AHK if AHK is now AHK_L with features not in iron?!")

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Its time that we start from the scratch else where, maybe a whole new site?
This poly spoiled the party.

Your not herding sheep here Mr.

amnesiac
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For non-English speaking users, I recommend AutoHotkey_L. I think that Unicode support is important for them.
For general computer users who speak English, AutoHotkey Basic may be better.

Click to download Chinese resource for AutoHotkey.

Recommended: AutoHotkey_L My code is based on it or similar versions, e.g. AutoHotkey_H.
Together with AutoHotkey, we grow and march forward. No matter how the future will be, this period of days is still epic.


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Polythene is performing the ultimate CPR on Chris and his AutoHotkey..
Breath body.. breath..
Mwahahaha

polyethene
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Thanks for all the support guys

autohotkey.com/net Site Manager

 

Contact me by email (polyethene at autohotkey.net) or message tidbit


sumon
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I think poly has been moving in the right direction with readding some AHK_L support, but I do believe that the action has already been harmful to the spirit of the AutoHotkey community, and as for me I'm just going to have to consider myself couped out of development for now. I'm not going to ragequit AutoHotkey or (atleast I'll try not to) make snarky comments under my signature or a guest account, but I'm sorry to feel obliged to backing off.

I must also clarify that even if I believe we could have achieved even better results with more collaboration and cooperation throughout the community (which would have been more possible with a more "open" way of procedure), atleast the changes to the forums and website are going to be really positive - I really like the forum upgrade (+avatars!). As for an eventual "breach" in the community, I think it has already been a very scary development, but time will tell.

polyethene
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I do believe that the action has already been harmful to the spirit of the AutoHotkey community

I would argue that it has been an insightful learning exercise into the demands of the community, and the radical changes has rekindled much interest in the project and its long-term future.

I'm just going to have to consider myself couped out of development for now. I'm not going to ragequit AutoHotkey or (atleast I'll try not to) make snarky comments under my signature or a guest account, but I'm sorry to feel obliged to backing off.

I can't say your anonymous trolling has been productive but I've always welcomed criticism where it is professional and not defamatory. I understand how you could feel a bit left out, but I had already asked you to redesign the documentation two nights ago. Have you made any progress here or should I make a start on it?

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IsNull
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Poly, have a look at our Documentation and Help. Contact our Site Admin, I think you can spare some work.

wtg
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I do believe that the action has already been harmful to the spirit of the AutoHotkey community

I would argue that it has been an insightful learning exercise into the demands of the community, and the radical changes has rekindled much interest in the project and its long-term future.

Oh, like the way declaring martial law rekindles interest in freedom?

Your comment is an incredibly disrespectful assessment of the firestorm your actions stirred up, and seems to back up the statement that you really don't care how the community perceives your actions.

wtg
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Thanks for all the support guys

Seriously?!? All of a sudden your the sensitive type?

Your actions have made it clear you weren't interested in support - you had a "vision" and it was going to be imposed. No announcement beforehand, no attempt to reach consensus, blatant disregard for well-known & popular opinions - content even - and no apologies that I've seen. Now all of a sudden you want support?!? Now it's the "poor me - I'm so unappreciated" attitude?

I haven't commented on any of the other threads one way or the other. As much as I've disagreed with the heavy-handedness around here lately, I've simply lurked, but this and the comment above are too much. If you're going to act like a dictator put your big-boy pants on.