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Formal request to Polyethene

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we can advertise AHK (renamed AHK_L) as beginner language (no need to bother with "complex stuff") with rich potential, as useful tool for intermediate and advanced users, and we can possibly even explain objects etc. in a way they don't seem that complex anymore (documentation improvements).

This is exactly what should be done. This way we can both get popularity and keep the "advanced" features for programmers. After all, it's what AutoHotkey has been for a long time: a programming language oriented towards both complete newbies/non-programmers and "advanced" programmers (yes, DllCall/RegisterCallback/NumPut/NumGet are advanced features).

Honestly, we shouldn't allow the community to split. Not to mention it would be a waste of effort, it would also drastically make the conditions here very bad since it would become a cesspool of blind leading the blind. IMO the community needs the savvy users because they provide invaluable help to newcomers, not to mention the wonderful scripts they post.

In short:
[*:1f7wxf39]Lexikos is confirmed to be willing to accept that AHK_L become the new main version
[*:1f7wxf39]The new AHK is to be advertised as before: as a beginner language (but with extras for programmers)
[*:1f7wxf39]The AHK_L documentation is to be rewritten and restructured
I think that's a pretty solid plan, isn't it? :)

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PS: good luck with your tests :D

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sumon, you deserve much respect, I wish you were the main site admin, things wouldn't go banana like this then
The forum was fine, Lex was happy going forward developing his most used version of AutoHotkey, everything on here was fine and then this poly decided to fix what wasn't broken.


No worries, it'll work out just alright, I hope.

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I'm not advanced user but I use AHK_L because of UTF-8 support.

I think that will be good to have one Autohothey but in documentation every command should be labeled with beginner or advanced tag. Beginners should learn basics first and go further step by step with advantage of compatibility basics with advanced part of language. It would be as with natural foreign language. There is a beginner level, intermediate and advanced but it's one language.

What do You think about such labeling commands in help files?

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Main version - I cannot discuss AutoHotkey_L replacing AutoHotkey unless the author, Lexikos, is happy about it.

As I wrote to Chris and sumon,

I intend to continue working on AutoHotkey_L whenever it interests me, regardless of what happens with the website. However, I expect the website and community will affect my level of motivation and the direction in which I take the project.

I am willing to accept whatever the outcome of this discussion may be.

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:D So glad to see you showing up here, Lexikos. :D

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Welcome back Lexikos,
Everyone here knows Ahk basic is dead long ago, almost no one uses it, specially new users, your version is the way to go, there isn't even a comparison.
Don't you worry about community support, we will follow you.

just me
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Dear Lexikos,

I'm glad to see you back here. And I hope that AHK_L will become the (mainstream) version of AHK again.

I am a programmer for many years. Some years ago I started to use AHK to write some tools because of its GUI features. Then I found AutoIt and decided to switch because of its (IMO) better syntax. Then I got substantial performance problems with one of my tools and switched back. Not familiar with C/C++ and the Windows API I had to learn that many of my purposes couldn't be realised without DllCalls. So I started to read in the MSDN. It was really hard work for me, but finally I'm able to understand parts of this mysteries.

After the release of AHK I noticed the upcoming stagnancy. I watched AHK_L for some time but didn't see any reason for me to use it, because I didn't understand how to use these strange objects. So I lost my interest and was moving away from AHK more and more. Then AHK_L 1.1 was released introducing the class syntax. Suddenly I began to understand the new possibilities provided by objects. This is why I'm still here.

I want to thank Lexikos for all his work on AHK_L. Nothing AHK_Basic can can't be done in AHK_L, but many things which can be done in _L cannot be done in Basic in a comparable easy and elegant way. That's why I think that "AHK" must be AHK_L.

I'd like to contribute on the further development, but I'm not familiar with C/C++. I can read some existing code, but I'm not able to write some. And I cannot help on documentation because of my limited english skills (it took about one and a half hour to write this post!). But I'm ready to help everyone to make any necessary adjustments in existing scripts to run with AHK_L.

I hope that we get an overall consent soon, so the whole community will calm down and continue the great work on this site.

Prefer ahkscript.org for the time being.

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Welcome back Lexikos, I do enjoy using your Build of Autohotkey. It just contains so many more features that are entirely useful like objects.

Lexikos shows up, thread becoms Lexikos thread

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Welcome back Lexikos. It's good to know you are interested in AHK still.

What do You think about such labeling commands in help files?

Who decieds what is advanced and what not? There are only 3 or 5 commands / functions which are advanced in any case. But most are basic and should remain as basic. Thats the nature of AHK. So no need to labeling. What do the others think about this. Interesting topic.

(Maybe, this should be forked into a new thread?)

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Please get AHK_L

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Hey Lex.. please dont go again..
Offical OOP has changed the whole game
and with any change is going to come some level of
resentment to it.
I for one am all for change and forward progress.

I started with primitive OOP in ActionScript 2 and gave up after a career change.
AHK_L has reintroduced me to it and opened up a whole new world of possibilities.
This is coming from one of the initial skeptics of the L fork.
Now I mainly use B to check for backward compatibility.

So I thank and applaud your efforts.
Please keep up the wonderful work.

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+1 AHK_L

I fully support Chris's vision that the main AHK page and (basic) tutorials should not drive away basic/non programmers, but since AHK_L can do whatever AHK can do, I see no reason why that vision can't be based on AHK_L being the default/main/recommended AHK installation.

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I hope that I'm not stirring up what has already been put to rest. If I am, a mod can feel free to delete this post.

I agree with everything that sumon has said, but I do understand where polyethene is coming from. To be honest, when I heard that AHK_L has OOP, I didn't like the idea; I still don't, to an extent. I can understand why poly wouldn't want AHK_L to get too advanced, making the documentation too bloated, and thus harder for the beginner to get started on. At the same time, however, I still think that _L is the future. I use it whenever possible for simple things such as supporting Unicode. So while I understand where poly is coming from, I think the best approach would be to start from _L and go backward a smidge rather than start from Basic and go forward.

One of the reasons I believe this is that AHK is extremely easy to use, but also very powerful! That was always extremely inspiring to me while I was learning (and still is, since I am still learning). But if I had searched and only found extremely basic examples, well, I probably would have gotten bored and went somewhere else. AHK is so incredibly simple to start out on and I don't think that's going to change; it is in its nature. It's making it also powerful that really gives some people something to strive for.

I'm a huge fan of all the other changes that have been listed in poly's planning, even if they were implemented in ways that might not have been ideal. I love the new forum, the new site, the new logo, ditching the wiki, and the social presence. I think they are all great ideas and long overdue. But I think that -as was sumon's main point- the input of the community should be a large determining factor. I feel like even though Chris was really the sole developer, that AHK has always been extremely community driven, even if it's just by analyzing trends of what people are doing with it. (I could be 110% wrong though.) Honestly, I could see AHK being run by something like a Tribunal: polyethene, sumon, Lexikos, Sean, Tuncay, philho, etc....the guys that (to me) are all legendary. I completely understand that this transition would be hard regardless and that polyethene will have to make some tough decisions that not everyone will be on board with, but it scares me to imagine the future of AHK as being focused on the whim of one person.

That's my 2 cents. I realize that I probably don't have a lot of say around here, but I genuinely love AHK and felt that if something I might say would help the outcome, it's my obligation to say it.
This is my signature. Isn't it friggin' amazing?

Previously known as "he who eats pie"

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Collaboration - a lot of people here talk but nobody actually does anything. I've seen this happen many times before when Chris put out threads asking for contributions and help, more bureaucracy clearly isn't the answer.

Asking for contributions and help will obviously only work if the community is interested in helping with what you are asking for help with... ;)

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Thanks Lexikos.Im happy to see you here again....

I admire your work...

PS. I admire the Chris work too, and Jonathan Bennett...and Polyethene work (specially unfinished ironAHK ;)...

... but above all, the work of this great community together.