Constructive criticism

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wetware05
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Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 10:25

Hi.

When a program like Adobe Illustrator creates new versions, it has to have compatibility with your previous .AI files.

I notice a less influx in the forums. I don't know if it's real or just a false feeling. Or is it because they are spread between the "great divide of version 1 and 2"?

For people who are new to the forum and to the AutoHotkey language... obviously! They choose version 2 because we live in an age where new is always better (arguable), but they don't realize that almost all of what has been written so far (70 or 80%, maybe?) it only works with version 1. The same thing happens with the functions (those that someone has done occasionally for something very specific, but that still work for version 1). Many of them will not be changed for version 2.

This is my view of how things should have been done. Because if version 1 is installed and then version 2, both versions work. Why not make a package that installs both versions at once? With this option, newcomers could use scripts from both versions, without them noticing (invisible but transparent). Another issue is that AutoHotkey should incorporate its own editor. Idea also thought for initiates. Such an editor would ask (or be in your configuration) if you are going to script for version 1 or 2. This way you would put compatibility (#Requires) in your header. I know an advanced person will choose their own editor, but if an If you are new to AutoHotkey, you would have a much easier life with that editor, much better, always, than notepad or any other free editor.

It would also be desirable that in the "Ask for Help" forums there should be a fixed thread that guides people on how to create a new thread, and the requirements for your Post to have answers or not (be clear in your request, expose an example, put the script closest to what you want to work, advise that you first search to see if what you want already exists in the forum..., etc.) Most of the time it is not understood what users you need (one problem is the language, and another is to make yourself understood. I have noticed that most of the time they request something, when what they really need is something else, but they have not explained what they want or the utility of that little code ( what is it framed in, within what other more general purpose) Clumsy example: "I want to know how to make a knife", you show it to him, but what he really wanted was to take off his pants and he's going to cut it, when it would have been worth telling him that "the pants have a zipper to do what you want". :crazy: I always try to read between the lines what people want, but it is almost never clear, under their words and the way they express themselves (but, of course, that is the great dilemma of human communication).
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joedf
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 11:25

I guess v1 and v2 could be bundled, or we remove the v1 link completely. As for programming languages, a major version change usually means compatibility-breaking/syntax changes. File formats are more abstract as it's not meant for the user (or this case programmer) to interpret the file's direct contents. I believe there is somewhat forgiving a v1/v2 detection mechanism in place, but it needs to be made clear to the user that this is a different version. I think the issue is that we want to accommodate current v1 users... and new users come in all confused what version to use or what they might have installed. Some might not even notice or understand the versions at all.

If think if we want to clear up the confusion, mainly for new users, we need to completely "hide" v1 or the idea that v2 is new, and only show one version as the download link. Either way, there will be users that need to work through the version confusion.
I personally am not on v2, might not go to it anytime soon (at the current rate that I ahk scripts), and nor do I necessarily want to... but if I try to look at it objectively.... I think v1 needs to be retired from view or the "main stage" so to speak.
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gregster
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 11:36

Imo, as long as v1 is widely used, hiding it will only create confusion and cause wrong downloads and wrongly placed posts. Many longtime users are not even aware of v2 yet, and of its implications.

We regularly have users who downloaded AHK v1 once years ago and never updated. For them, a v2 download link won't be of immediate help, because their scripts will simply stop working (and they are told that they need another version) - but they might want to update to the latest v1 version at some point. So I would keep the v1 download link. In the forums, I think, we will need to keep a clear distinction and a visibility of the v1 forums. Otherwise v1 users will start posting again in the v2 forums, something we are trying to avoid. At the moment, there are still too many requests for v1 to hide it.

Still new users need to understand that there is no compatibility between v1 and v2 code. Clearly, standalone scripts can run independently, but if libraries are involved, there will be problems. So, installing both versions, and thinking all will be good, won't gonna work.

Also, to add #requires to the script template, you wouldn't need a specific editor. If you create a new v2 script via right-click menu on the desktop, the v2 template indeed already contains #Requires AutoHotkey v2.0.
Last edited by gregster on 14 Jun 2023, 11:52, edited 1 time in total.
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joedf
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 11:49

I'm think the link could be a bundled v1-v2 download, and the version detection can kick in for those users. perhaps not the best solution, if people want the v1 we will still have it, but we should probably not provide two links.... Otherwise, I fear we will be stuck in this "transitional" period or "version purgatory". Software version changes generally need to be aggressive as users, such as myself, can be stubborn and refuse to change/update their setup... they are used to used to and have come to love.

"Promote" one link, other version can be still found... examples:
https://www.python.org/
https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/
https://www.rust-lang.org/
https://go.dev/
https://www.perl.org/

Edit: I'm thinking we can keep the current forum structure as is... but maybe the docs and download pages could benefit from a change.
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gregster
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 12:04

I'd argue that these languages have also different user bases than we have; eg we have a larger part of casual users who didn't care much for versions so far, because it was never a real problem in 20 years. For us, aggressiveness will probably lead to more confusion and more work. Something we are trying to reduce at the moment - at least this is my understanding.
wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 12:07

Hi.
@joedf
It has happened to me that I have shared a script in the Total Commander forum and someone has told me that it did not work for them and it was for something as simple as that they only had version 2 installed. If you explain to them that they have to uninstall the version 2, and installing version 1 and then 2 for it to work, it won't do it. At the level it works (I think, at least in short scripts) for the end user there is no improvement from version 1 and 2.

What I want to point out is that novice people will be deprived of using AutoHotkey for the simple fact of not understanding the problem of changing the version. Which leads to people who can abandon the idea of ​​the AutoHotkey utility prematurely (especially nowadays that on average they are gamers and reinstall on odeandor every so often, not installing what they previously had installed)

@gregster

The #requires suggestion is included within the idea that AutoHotkey has its own editor when installing. A few days ago a new user said that how to reload the script to go testing. An editor provided by AutoHotkey would have a "run" key, whereas with notepad, you have to save and reload from the icon in the icon tray, and new people don't know something so basic.
guest3456
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 12:26

the biggest mistake was not creating a new extension for v2

.ahk2 would have solved much of this

i am hugely against hiding v1... v1 will likely be the prevalent version for many years in the future, maybe even forever

wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 12:36

guest3456 wrote:
14 Jun 2023, 12:26
the biggest mistake was not creating a new extension for v2

.ahk2 would have solved much of this

i am hugely against hiding v1... v1 will likely be the prevalent version for many years in the future, maybe even forever
I think it is a quick and effective solution :thumbup:
gregster
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 12:53

guest3456 wrote:
14 Jun 2023, 12:26
v1 will likely be the prevalent version for many years in the future, maybe even forever
In June, we have so far in the main Ask for Help forums (v1 vs v2): 144 vs 130 posts. But of course v1 has 20 years in advance, v1.1 more then 12 years. So it's evident that it will take time until v2 takes over the majority on the user level. After all, v1 is not that bad.

I see neither the extension nor an included editor as a major factor. But perhaps smth like a slightly modified CodeQuickTester (by Geek(Dude)) could be included - it's surely a good basic editor without much detractions, but also without debugging and without multiple tabs.. perhaps it could help some beginners who feel overwhelmed by larger editors. I think it already loads the template by default when you create a new script, although I changed that on mine ;) . It's a good addition to a fully featured editor for sure, probably useful to almost every user (especially for a quick code testing without saving any file). Probably some (at least optional) auto-save-when-run mechanism should be added for beginners - for example, it could have one Run and one Save+Run button.
Last edited by gregster on 14 Jun 2023, 13:16, edited 1 time in total.
wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 13:01

I think my idea has not been well understood. It is not that the version is installed regardless of the user. Setup would ask if you install version 1, for better compatibility. I imagine that new people would say yes, when in doubt.

https://github.com/G33kDude/CodeQuickTester/releases/tag/v2.8 mentioned by @gregster
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joedf
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 18:36

Okay, alright just playing a bit of devil's advocate. I personally prefer just staying on v1, but as I understood the consensus was to push (not necessarily force) for v2.
Okay, so with all this said... What are the actual suggested actions to take? Just provide an optional (checkbox maybe) bundled editor with the installer? Is that it?
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wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 19:09

joedf wrote:
14 Jun 2023, 18:36
Okay, alright just playing a bit of devil's advocate. I personally prefer just staying on v1, but as I understood the consensus was to push (not necessarily force) for v2.
Okay, so with all this said... What are the actual suggested actions to take? Just provide an optional (checkbox maybe) bundled editor with the installer? Is that it?
And if V2 is installed, give the option to install V1, for greater compatibility with existing scripts, libraries and functions. Preferable for people starting out.
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joedf
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Re: Constructive criticism

14 Jun 2023, 19:26

Welp in that case, I defer to @lexikos and his wisdom :ugeek:
Ultimately, I'd say it's his "choice" and handles the installer... :morebeard:
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wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

15 Jun 2023, 01:36

joedf wrote:
14 Jun 2023, 19:26
Welp in that case, I defer to @lexikos and his wisdom :ugeek:
Ultimately, I'd say it's his "choice" and handles the installer... :morebeard:
Ah! I forgot to add a pinned post in the "Ask for Help" threads with rules and suggestions on how to ask for help (be clear in your request, give an example, put the script closest to what you want to work on, advise first searching to see if what you want already exists in the forum..., etc.) :thumbup:
lexikos
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Re: Constructive criticism

15 Jun 2023, 03:36

A default installation of v2 registers .ahk files to open with the launcher. If the launcher cannot correctly identify the version required by the script, having both v1 and v2 installed will not help. If the launcher correctly identifies a v1 script and v1 is not installed, the launcher will offer to download and install it. There is very little to gain by including v1 itself in the v2 download. Regardless of how it happens, installing v1 would not help an uninformed user to utilize a v1 function, library or code snippet in a v2 script.

One of my ideas for v2.0 release was for the "editor settings" UI to provide automated installation of editors from a curated selection, but I ultimately wasn't sufficiently interested in doing the work myself. There exists no editor which I would be satisfied to include in the installer itself.
wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

15 Jun 2023, 08:50

Hey lexikos, thank you very much for all your work.

My point of view is whether Autohotkey may be suffering from this (temporary, perhaps) chaos between the two versions. But this can be better analyzed through the download statistics and the capacity on the community pages.

In my point of view any editor created by an Autohotkey user can be better than if new people use notepad.

(Another possibility is that when the installer is finished it leads to an orientation page, where editors, essential functions and similar issues, latest news are shared. That page would have to be constantly updated, and that is a task that will require time and effort, and therefore Perhaps there is no one who wanted to take care of it.)

On the subject of the two versions. I have both installed and it almost always hits on which version is running. I think this is preferable to someone new just install V2 and get frustrated because the scripts don't work for him and don't know how to adapt them to V2, because he doesn't even have the ability to do some small script.

I am helping with V1 scripts to people who ask for help on V2, because since it is now the default site, they ask for help without understanding the version issue. I am aware that it is not the right thing to do, but I only help when nobody helps them, because guidance help will always be better than no help at all.

I no longer insist. Look at statistics and if something is noticed in the short term, it will be in your hands to make a change.
lexikos
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Re: Constructive criticism

15 Jun 2023, 21:43

wetware05 wrote:I have both installed and it almost always hits on which version is running.
I don't know what you're trying to say.
I think this is preferable to someone new just install V2 and get frustrated because the scripts don't work for him and don't know how to adapt them to V2, because he doesn't even have the ability to do some small script.
I think you missed the point of the first paragraph in my previous post.
any editor created by an Autohotkey user can be better than if new people use notepad.
I think that's obvious, but again, There exists no editor which I would be satisfied to include in the installer itself.

Notepad is the default for portable use, but if you have installed v2 and have not already set a custom editor, you are prompted to select an editor the first time you attempt to Edit a script. This prompt includes a link to Editors with AutoHotkey Support. It can also be displayed by selecting "Editor settings" from the Dash.
Another possibility is that when the installer is finished it leads to an orientation page, where editors, essential functions and similar issues, latest news are shared.
This is one of many ideas that I considered. Ideas are easy. Implementing an idea is much more useful than just sharing it. In general, I think that no one will be more interested in implementing your idea than you are.

I am not in favour of the installer opening such a page automatically, but a link could be prominently shown in the Welcome section of the Dash. The Dash is opened automatically when installation completes, but is also easily accessed by running "AutoHotkey" from the Start menu (the shortcut will say "AutoHotkey Dash" in >=v2.0.3). Whether the Welcome screen is visible depends on the SuppressIntro REG_DWORD under HKCU\Software\AutoHotkey\Dash.

As I wrote about prior to release, my intention was to go a step further than just providing reading material, and automate installation of editors. Due to time and motivation constraints, the v2.0 release only implements a basic welcome message with links for learning how to use AutoHotkey (built into the Dash). I reviewed v2 support in the available editors and what I found was somewhat demotivating, so I just updated the Editors with AutoHotkey Support section of the documentation and added a link to the editor settings GUI.
wetware05
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Re: Constructive criticism

16 Jun 2023, 02:32

Hi, @lexikos

It is true that I had not realized that you had said that version 2 will offer to install version 1. It may have happened because my short-term memory fails me too much, perhaps due to age, perhaps due to other things (every day I do things twice without realizing that I had done it the first time).

I didn't know about Dash either, since I'm still working with version 1, there's no such option. For the same reason, I didn't know that version 2 offered editors either. (perhaps these routines could be put in version 1, as a transition for those who like me are still in version 1)

Looking at your writing, I see that you have analyzed the pros and cons of everything, and your mind is more on this subject than someone who comes from "outside" the subject.

Again, thanks for your great work. :thumbup:
lexikos
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Re: Constructive criticism

16 Jun 2023, 22:54

wetware05 wrote:since I'm still working with version 1
Making suggestions that, for all you know, have already been implemented or superseded, is likely to be a waste of time; both yours and the reader's.
(perhaps these routines could be put in version 1, as a transition for those who like me are still in version 1)
I do not plan to do any development on v1 or its installer. You'll be lucky to get bug fixes.

I have no idea what "as a transition" means in the context of being prompted to select an editor.

That aside, the editor selection GUI is a v2 script. Anyone can get the new UX features by installing v2, whether they are considering transitioning to v2 or even writing v1 code exclusively.
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Shikoweno
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Re: Constructive criticism

28 Jun 2023, 23:16

hello everyone. I'm just going to say that: "simple is better". I started with autoit3 and it worked fine, then with version 1 of autohotkey just as good and all because it was simple and you didn't need to be a programmer to make the scripts work and solve problems. what happened to version 2 that i don't understand the examples?

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