Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

Discussion about the AutoHotkey Foundation and this website
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joedf
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 06:15

As far as I know it's a full on no... but yes. We need to set something "in stone".
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Exaskryz
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 09:21

sinkfaze wrote:
nnnik wrote:Malware is not a physical thing so it cannot physically hurt PCs. Malware damages the software which may or may not result in physical damage in the PC. Whether the user thinks it is physically damaged or not does not make any difference.


Oh FFS, let's nitpick. Malware damages a computer. Pranks appear to damage a computer. "Cheats" do not damage a computer.

nnnik wrote:On another side ( going by your argument ) the software manifacturer that runs the server might think their servers have become "physically damaged".


And where can we find quotes from software manufacturers saying that about "cheats"? Have they come to us directly to make such a complaint?


When a game wouldn't let me play...:

Hello there!
This is an automated response from the Support team of Wellbia Co., Ltd.
Hmm, seems like you have some troubleshooting issues with your game!
We’re sorry for your inconvenience.
Your xigncode.log sent to us has detected a third party program as the following;
C:\Program Files\AutoHotkey\AutoHotkey.exe


So the capabilities of AHK are on the radar of cheat detection companies, and they haven't whitelisted the program. Though it appears it may only trigger if there's a keyboard hook installed by AHK.

sinkfaze wrote:
tidbit wrote:I drew the line at the fact it has like 10 cheats in one. I asked for a bunch of opinions, many people agreed.


Why did you think the issue needed a solicitation of opinions in the first place? Are we rooting out the damage to "our reputation" for which there is no substantive proof is happening in the first place?


tidbit wrote:Are you saying that if anyone can download an Autofire, Autoaim, No Recoil, AutoBhop, Disconnect from internet to peek around a corner then reconnect and kill - all-in-one script, it's not cheating? Because everyone can get it, therefore it's fair game.


A "cheat" is by definition something that you do or have that your competition cannot do or have, which gives you an unfair advantage over them. If you're giving away that same advantage to your competition, how is that then "cheating"?


Yes, everyone can take steroids, so it's not cheating to use them in any sporting event.

Never mind that you need to be aware that steroids exist and that you need to know where to find them.

sinkfaze wrote:
tidbit wrote:A cheat is what is determined in the TOS/EULA.


And it's not our job to go around reading the TOS/EULA of every game to see if somebody's script is in compliance. They can take their own chances.

tidbit wrote:...if they say "no automating, botting, auto fire" or (whatever legal terms they use) and people use such tools, even if it's shared online on a small forum, it's a cheat.


Do these gaming companies have us on the payroll to patrol our forums for them? I don't give away that kind of time, my time is for rent only.


You're right that it isn't anyone's job within the AHK community to be reading over TOS/EULAs. However, there is a a pretty general spirit of gameplay amongst competitive games and you can get a hunch for when something doesn't feel right. Those are the gray guidelines by which any policing done here should be.

I do fully agree that the use of cheats is at the risk of the user.

I do propose that this entire discussion is kind of getting ahead of the trend - though it's been an ongoing thing for quite a while. People are coming to the AHK forums for support in using cheat scripts they found on the internet, rather than going to a site like MPGH or a website dedicated to cheating in their particular game. As a community we need to figure out if we even want those types of requests here, let alone the code for cheating hosted on the forums.

There is definitely a lot of back and forth; this isn't at all black and white. And the problem is trying to define what is black and white so a policy can be enforced.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 09:46

Exaskryz wrote: As a community we need to figure out if we even want those types of requests here, let alone the code for cheating hosted on the forums.
That is exactly the point. I could care less how gaming companies feel about the subject. This is purely a matter of our organizations ethics. Do we as an organization/community find these types of implementations unsavory or not. Clearly we have more than one MOD that does and at least one mod that does not.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 10:11

Exaskryz wrote:When a game wouldn't let me play...:

Hello there!
This is an automated response from the Support team of Wellbia Co., Ltd.
Hmm, seems like you have some troubleshooting issues with your game!
We’re sorry for your inconvenience.
Your xigncode.log sent to us has detected a third party program as the following;
C:\Program Files\AutoHotkey\AutoHotkey.exe


So the capabilities of AHK are on the radar of cheat detection companies, and they haven't whitelisted the program. Though it appears it may only trigger if there's a keyboard hook installed by AHK.


I can provide an anecdotal data point, too:

bluce wrote:
Concerned_citizen wrote:I am wondering if it is possible to submit these cheats to Valve so that VAC could specifically target these scripts and ban their users. I think the time will soon come when they ban users of this and similar scripts (hopefully instead of targeting all of AutoHotkey). If that were possible I think it would be good for the community.

Nah, I doubt Valve will ever detect Autohotkey as a malicious program. Overwatch is what gets people banned for Autohotkey, and that rarely ever happens.
Valve always wants to avoid false-positives, which is why they won't ban Autohotkey since people use it for cheating.
Go ahead and send this to Valve if you want, do remember that Steam Support is shit though.


But anecdotes are not data. Companies have no standard by which they all handle these issues; there's no reason for us to assume absolutist measures for non-absolute outcomes.

Exaskryz wrote:You're right that it isn't anyone's job within the AHK community to be reading over TOS/EULAs. However, there is a a pretty general spirit of gameplay amongst competitive games and you can get a hunch for when something doesn't feel right.


Then it sounds like you should be in support of a gaming company banning the use of an AHK exe while you're playing that particular game if it's not "fair", muh vibrancy script be damned.


Exaskryz wrote:Those are the gray guidelines by which any policing done here should be.


No, because we aren't partnered or otherwise involved with those gaming companies any more than we're partnered or otherwise involved with the person who creates cheat scripts. We're here to support good programming in AHK so long as it's not malicious (or seemingly so) in intent. I don't think any of you were even here to know how beneficial programmers who originally used AHK to automate online poker gaming were to advancing AHK along the line in the early days. Not all of those programmers were, no, but the fact that they were welcomed here welcomed advances in AHK. You cut off the opportunities for user creativity and you cut off your nose to spite your face.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 10:31

sinkfaze wrote:
Exaskryz wrote:You're right that it isn't anyone's job within the AHK community to be reading over TOS/EULAs. However, there is a a pretty general spirit of gameplay amongst competitive games and you can get a hunch for when something doesn't feel right.


Then it sounds like you should be in support of a gaming company banning the use of an AHK exe while you're playing that particular game if it's not "fair", muh vibrancy script be damned.


Technically, yes. While I hate having to shut down my AHK scripts, that are on a different windows account than the one I'm playing my game on, I do agree that gaming companies can ban you for using AHK scripts no matter if they are meant to cheat in a game or not. That's a really cool script you linked to, and it showcases why we should still support scripting in gaming and it is one of the examples to provide to people who ask "If the forums aren't for cheats, then what is left to share for gaming scripts??"


sinkfaze wrote:
Exaskryz wrote:Those are the gray guidelines by which any policing done here should be.


No, because we aren't partnered or otherwise involved with those gaming companies any more than we're partnered or otherwise involved with the person who creates cheat scripts. We're here to support good programming in AHK so long as it's not malicious (or seemingly so) in intent. I don't think any of you were even here to know how beneficial programmers who originally used AHK to automate online poker gaming were to advancing AHK along the line in the early days. Not all of those programmers were, no, but the fact that they were welcomed here welcomed advances in AHK. You cut off the opportunities for user creativity and you cut off your nose to spite your face.


And we're in disagreement about what is malicious.

No I wasn't aware of the history of AHK. Regardless just because there may have been a particular behavior that helped guide or spur development of a program does not mean that particular behavior needs to be preserved. We wouldn't have self-driving cars without manually-driven cars, but it possible we're looking in our lifetimes a day when manually-driven cars are not legal on public roads.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 11:13


Ok. Okokokok.

This is not in any way, shape or form a cheat. I can't even remotely start to understand your reasoning of why this should be a cheat except for you having absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If you legitimately believe this is cheating, please. I'm all ears. Do tell me how that is.

You can literally go into your NVIDIA or AMD and pull a slider and your vibrancy will increase/decrease. It's an inbuilt feature of your graphics software the same way changing brightness on your monitor is. Also, NVIDIA provides an API for you to interface with the card and change this.

It's as much of a cheat as putting shortcuts on your desktop, or using mediakeys instead of opening your music app and clicking on the start/stop button manually.

Exaskryz wrote:That's a really cool script you linked to, and it showcases why we should still support scripting in gaming and it is one of the examples to provide to people who ask "If the forums aren't for cheats, then what is left to share for gaming scripts??"

Thanks for the kind words, and I agree with what you said.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 15:51

tank wrote:This is purely a matter of our organizations ethics. Do we as an organization/community find these types of implementations unsavory or not. Clearly we have more than one MOD that does and at least one mod that does not.
Run1e wrote:In all seriousness, I think the people in the LLC should step up and make a decision to allow cheats or not so we don't have to be in this weird in-between.

Why do you refuse to do it?
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

26 May 2017, 17:28

I'll repeat myself. We will set down clearly written rules in the manifesto. And respect these verbatim. Now, what we need is to agree on the rules; what is to be allowed and what is not.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 10:26

just me wrote:Why do you refuse to do it?
I think you of all people are quite clear on my views here. but i promised not to be poly and make unilateral decisions. there is no harm in letting the debate go to a fruitful conclusion. Joe has said he is going to start up some documented rules and such. I think we have only one serious detractor here
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 12:31

joedf wrote:what is to be allowed and what is not.
The ethical "line in the sand" for me is when scripts give a competitive advantage to a user vs a human opponent.

Maybe some wording to consider:

Do not post scripts for multi-player games where the script gives the user a competitive advantage over another human player.

So for example, aim bots for PVP games such as CS are banned because they give the user a competitive advantage over a human enemy player. Similarly, auto-loot scripts for MMO games are banned because they give a competitive advantage over a human ally.


If something is borderline, it could require a 2/3 majority vote to make it banned. Whether that vote is between the mods or open to the community; either way is OK with me. Probably less drama if the mods do it; fewer cooks in the kitchen as it were.

Auto-buy scripts in CS may be an example of that "borderline" area where a vote is required to determine whether the community considers them ethical. I think they are mostly harmless.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 13:00

What about games that can be played both locally and online?
What about games where we don't know whether it's an unfair advantage or not?
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kon
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 13:04

Vote. And use past precedent to inform the decision.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 13:24

That's too much work.
Do you have any idea how much time it takes to get a single vote done?
Do we need to vote for every Minecraft Script?
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 13:50

No, do it once then follow the decision in all cases after that.
The rules are the constitution. The mods are the judiciary.

This does not mean more work for you as a mod. I don't care about minecraft scripts, so I'm not going to create a vote about it. The work will get done to the extent that people feel there is an ethical problem that needs to be solved.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 14:18

Every poll brings along a discussion. There are at least 3 topics:
Whether choices should be added, whether choices should be removed and a general discussion for pros and cons for a specific topic.
The staff needs to evaluate the replies and eventually needs to discuss things amongst themselves to make the poll valid.
In addition to that we need to conclude things meaning that after a poll is over we need more discoussion.
So I calculate 3 weeks per poll ( at least ). During this time we need to watch every reply there.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 14:23

One option I mentioned above was that the "vote" could be among the mods. So maybe something like this:
- A mod sees a thread he believes to be in violation of the rules.
- He locks it and makes a thread in the mod forum.
- Other mods can either agree with the decision or not. Require a 2/3 majority agreement to keep the thread locked. Vote does not need to be a vote per-se. A thread should be sufficient in most cases.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 14:28

Well let's just try it out I guess.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 15:47

nnnik wrote:What about games that can be played both locally and online?
What about games where we don't know whether it's an unfair advantage or not?


If a script offers an online advantage despite any intent by the poster, then it shouldn't be posted, even if it's meant to make the offline mode easier or something.

For games that are unknown, judgment should be reserved. If it gets a report from someone who thinks it is breaking the rules, then it may take a bit of research to try to understand the game, and then remove it if there is judgment that there is a likelihood of it being against the rules.

This is in contrast to kon's suggested approach of locking, then deciding if it is an allowed post or not after moderator discussion. I'm taking the innocent until proven guilty approach (though not fully as I don't think we need to be absolutely certain a script breaks the rules if it would require a fair amount of knowledge of the game the script is for).
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 17:51

Exaskryz, I think we are saying the same thing.

For games that are unknown, judgment should be reserved. If it gets a report from someone who thinks it is breaking the rules, then it may take a bit of research to try to understand the game, and then remove it if there is judgment that there is a likelihood of it being against the rules.


To be clear, I was only suggesting that a mod should lock a thread if it is obviously violating the rules. This also allows debate among the mods and the decision can be overturned.

The "unknowns" you mention are the rare exceptions that we both agree require special attention. I too favor the innocent until proven guilty approach.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

28 May 2017, 18:15

@kon seems like a reasonable approach.
I guess we could use similar wording and mention we will use a case-by-case discussion for those that are border-line.
That is... if we find a consensus on this cheating matter and a clear common definition.

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