Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

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tank
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 11:10

tank and I have been on good terms for a long time, we have worked together on projects both on and off these forums. I am a passionate defender of AHK and these forums, I wouldn't be giving tank or anyone else a hard time unless I felt that the original spirit of the forums was being violated without a good reason for doing so.
So very true. I value and respect you. Which is why i havent taken anything said personally or as being directed at me except to defend yourself
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 11:17

Again, this is about OUR Ethics not anyone elses.
And what is the ethical grounding of this argument? What were our ethics in deleting what nnnik calls exceptional AHK programming? What are our ethics in chasing off our own user base?
because gaming companies might block us
SO TOTALLY NOT THE POINT. We have no say in that at any rate.
Tell that to the people who are saying that we have a say and that's the reason that this must be done.
Yes this is a MOD issue of how we run/represent OUR community
So then why was a vote which 1) included non-mods, and 2) solicited a biased sample of users, mod or otherwise, allowed to delete the post?
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 11:24

exceptionally well done programming
You wouldn't say that if you actually looked at the code. It was pretty horrible.
nnnik said it was a hack of exceptional quality even in the history of AutoHotkey. I'll take his word over yours.
quality in terms of features not in quality of programming.
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RUNIE
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 11:56

exceptionally well done programming
You wouldn't say that if you actually looked at the code. It was pretty horrible.
nnnik said it was a hack of exceptional quality even in the history of AutoHotkey. I'll take his word over yours.
quality in terms of features not in quality of programming.
This is what I meant. It's a functional piece of software but if you were looking at the source with the intention of learning you would become stupider.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 11:58

You seem to forget that we are the official site representing AHK.
Not a gaming company, not your friends, JUST AHK.
Are we not friends ?
Please excuse my spelling I am dyslexic.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 12:06

And what is the ethical grounding of this argument?
Should we or not endorse(by not moderating) obvious mis-use/violate TOS/reflects badly on us. I favor moderating/filtering/even removing such content
What were our ethics in deleting what nnnik calls exceptional AHK programming?
quality has no bearing on the ethics. I have seen brilliantly written exploits. You wont find these on Microsoft boards either
What are our ethics in chasing off our own user base?
our userbase is not the issue or the point. if we run off unethical users then so be-it. Our site is not funded by visits or page hits. visits and page hits do not drive our success. Our success is based on being supportive of legitimate use. of having an engaged and inviting community. I certainly find personal motivation in our visitor count, and our community for the most part is the best of the best in terms of quality of users. The question at hand is do we want to encourage or allow an ever seedier bunch to root itself in our community.
Tell that to the people who are saying that we have a say and that's the reason that this must be done.
Didn't I?


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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 May 2017, 12:07

Are we not friends ?
lol, hopefully but not the criteria of whom our moderators represent
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

31 May 2017, 03:58

I'm Allmost sad after reading all of this topic just now

What is this issue with letting users use ahk for what ever they wish? As long as the topic on this forum shows the code, be it via a link or in a codebox?

I've used ahk for over 5 years now, in the day time for helping me complete work tasks even quicker and remove obstacles from me and my coworkers daily.

In my free time i've used it to make use of unofficiel api's, unknown backdoors, mobil features but from a desktop, generally acting as a user when the script is not, collecting stock prices on dozens of sites to be used for auto trading and the list goes on...

That is just a few of the things i've done that is not for gameing but can still be seen as none intended use giving the people using them an unfair advantage... do we also need to remove that kind of scripts then?

I've made a good number of bots, some for me, some for others, some even got me banned, but hey that just made me move on to the next project, I feel that the gamming companies the ban Autohotkey as a thing is just plain out wrong the idea of ahk being the issue is wrong as i could make the same thing in almost any other useful language, so what does it really help then?

How is this really reflecting on the community! Our community is small and we a few that actively speak up, most that do speak use it for other things than gaming but that is not the same as the gaming userbase having no merit...
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

31 May 2017, 06:06

Yes, this is getting out of hand. worrying about blocking ahk is somewhat non-sense. Punkbuster already blocks ahk, yet some people still manage to get it working.
I really don't mind any script as long as the source is posted. I feel this is just people arguing now, we are not taking any action. We need to decide.
Gaming scripts -> yes or no -> case-by-case, full or zero tolerance -> establish rules -> execute and defend theses, no more debates: now the issue would be closed.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

31 May 2017, 07:15

So @BlackHolyMan you're suggesting that we are making a distinction between game cheats and back-doors for other applications..... I have to admit i had not rationalized this in that way.
@joedf yea this is just arguing now but this recent comment offers some constructive insight i think. I still think obvious back-doors are wrong but @blackholyman makes a good point that aside from games we have not had a history of taking exception to it. While i cant think of any obvious examples aside from memory scanners, its a good counterpoint. I stand by my point of view that this is an ethics question not a who bans what or why. I also stand by restricting obvious violations of ToS. But based on the above argument perhaps the precedent is long set to allow
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

31 May 2017, 07:31

i see... Malicious behaviour essentially.
We could set out a clear and robust definition of "Malicious".
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

31 May 2017, 09:09

I've used ahk for over 5 years now, in the day time for helping me complete work tasks even quicker and remove obstacles from me and my coworkers daily.

In my free time i've used it to make use of unofficiel api's, unknown backdoors, mobil features but from a desktop, generally acting as a user when the script is not, collecting stock prices on dozens of sites to be used for auto trading and the list goes on...

That is just a few of the things i've done that is not for gameing but can still be seen as none intended use giving the people using them an unfair advantage... do we also need to remove that kind of scripts then?
I make a distinction between cheating in games and "cheating" in making life easier, because life doesn't have a particular set of rules you must abide by, but games do. The participants in a game consent to the rules to play it (whether this is video games or something physical like football).

Looking at just backdoors/unofficial API, I think it comes down to the intent. The developers probably don't want people using those, but at the same time if there is no harm to anyone or anyone is disadvantaged (i.e. there is no competitive environment), then scripts that make use of them should be just fine. I will admit I'm not as well versed on the topic of backdoors or even APIs so I wouldn't know a common use case for such a situation.

It was mentioned above about describing actions "Malicious", and I still agree that should be the basis for any code that shouldn't be shared on the forums.

But that does inspire another point. Should snippets of code be allowed for the sake of learning? Fully functional exploits/cheats shouldn't be, but if something is discussed even if the ultimate intent is to accomplish something malicious, would that be allowed in the name of learning?
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

31 May 2017, 15:09

Well, I see the point you're getting at...
But then again, it's impossible to prevent all malicious intent. We can do what we can but that's the extent of it :/
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

27 Jun 2017, 12:56

I think many people are coming to AutoHotkey from gaming but after seeing the true power of AutoHotkey forgetting about automating games and switching to something more useful.
Also, I think that game bots are forcing game developers to make the game less repetitive (because bots are made to automate repetitive tasks) what is definitely good. Autofiring and recoil scripts are harming gaming but they are very simple to make and banning them will change nothing. Autofiring and recoil scripts are much easier to detect for game developers than bots and game developers should take care of that problem.
So I think it is better to keep gaming section. I think we should only ban illegal scripts, but not game automation which is legal.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

27 Jun 2017, 18:19

I think it is quite easy to lay down a series of no-go areas that specifically ban the kinds of scripts that I have issue with.

No script that manipulates your aim point while firing (eg "no-recoil") or aims / shoots for you ("AimBot" / "TriggerBot").
No script that glitches out your character animations etc for the purposes of making you harder to hit ("Bunny Hop").
No wallhacks or artificially injected maps / radars.

Simples.
Covers the main offenders, but leaves things which are relatively benign alone.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

30 Jun 2017, 21:36

I'm commenting here to keep an eye on this situation. I have been postponing the finishing writing/releasing my next version of League Tools due to the fact that it basically toes the line here. It does not provide any in-game advantages but I doubt the developers of League would put their stamp of approval on the auto-login options of my script. Personally I feel like I am flying just under the radar in both cases and I would rather be up front about the intent of my script to avoid any harsh consequences depending on the decision.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

01 Jul 2017, 00:48

I think it is quite easy to lay down a series of no-go areas that specifically ban the kinds of scripts that I have issue with.

No script that manipulates your aim point while firing (eg "no-recoil") or aims / shoots for you ("AimBot" / "TriggerBot").
No script that glitches out your character animations etc for the purposes of making you harder to hit ("Bunny Hop").
No wallhacks or artificially injected maps / radars.

Simples.
Covers the main offenders, but leaves things which are relatively benign alone.
I think it will be difficult to distinguish benign or malignant script types. For example, there are bots that are using injections for getting information from the curent state of the game. In fact it does the same as script based on imagesearch - getting info from the game, just in a different way. I think it will be difficult to interpret rules in only one way and will give moderators extra work.

All of described above scripts either need to use injection or like autofire scripts are fireing at the speed that human is incapable to do. Both of these cases are easy to detect for game developer if he really wants to.
It does not provide any in-game advantages but I doubt the developers of League would put their stamp of approval on the auto-login options of my script.
I hope there will never be the need for game developer approval of a script or banning the script only because developer asked so. It will kill gaming section of AutoHotkey.
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nnnik
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

01 Jul 2017, 04:20

I'm commenting here to keep an eye on this situation. I have been postponing the finishing writing/releasing my next version of League Tools due to the fact that it basically toes the line here. It does not provide any in-game advantages but I doubt the developers of League would put their stamp of approval on the auto-login options of my script. Personally I feel like I am flying just under the radar in both cases and I would rather be up front about the intent of my script to avoid any harsh consequences depending on the decision.
I don't think that auto login scripts will be part of the affected group of posts. At least that's not where the discussion is headed.
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evilC
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

01 Jul 2017, 07:07

I think it will be difficult to distinguish benign or malignant script types. For example, there are bots that are using injections for getting information from the curent state of the game. In fact it does the same as script based on imagesearch - getting info from the game, just in a different way. I think it will be difficult to interpret rules in only one way and will give moderators extra work.

All of described above scripts either need to use injection or like autofire scripts are fireing at the speed that human is incapable to do. Both of these cases are easy to detect for game developer if he really wants to.
I disagree. My set of rules were very, very specific in what they forbade and none of the stuff you just mentioned were forbidden.

As a rule of thumb RE:Developers - if you posted the script on the official forums of the game and it does not get moderated out, you are OK.
Anything where it is obvious that it would get removed is clearly doing something it should not be.
A good example is my Fire Control thread on the MWO forums. Numerous people have reported it to the devs, but they agree that it is in the spirit of the game and solves a shortcoming of the game that needed solving but they do not have time/resources to do so for the limited number of scenarios where you need it.

It's really rather simple. Is this douchebag behavior? If I had kids and I discovered on of them doing this in a multiplayer game, would I lecture them on morality?
I am not talking about outright banning any techniques that could be used for douchebag purposes, I am talking about banning the distribution of complete scripts whose sole purpose is to gain super-human accuracy or agility to the detriment of others.
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Re: Bhop scripts, no-recoil etc

01 Jul 2017, 09:26

A clear list of keyword point form criterias anyone?
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