AutoHotkey Community

guest3456 wrote: is a hammer manufacturer less reputable because some people choose to use it to smash windows?

If they have examples of breaking other peoples windows in their site and adverts then yes it makes them less reputable.

The C analogy is not a good one IMHO.
If C had an official forum with a gaming section, and on occasion over half the threads on the front page were hacks, then yes people would associate C with hacks.
It is also impossible to "ban" a C executable, whilst it is entirely possible (And is already happening) for games to refuse to run if AHK is running (Regardless of whether the script has anything to do with the game or not).

But yes, you are correct, I am not advocating complete banning of knowledge transfer in this area, I am advocating banning distribution of finished scripts that fit certain criteria.

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here, for no purpose other than to add a different perspective.

I do not agree that writing malware is inappropriate. In fact, by doing so, it give better insight in protecting your own code or system. However, distributing such code would be inappropriate, including if someone has requested it for the same purpose of learning. In such a case, the original coder should do a detailed write-up of it and send/distribute that. Doing so will allow people to be aware of the possible vulnerabilities. If someone takes to recreating it, that's of their own volition.

Regarding games.. they're just software. Nothing more, nothing less. You interact with it, it manipulates data, etc., just like any other program. Now, if it's an online game, then there are other people involved (obviously). If someone can write code to enhance their experience or create an advantage in a game, that's technically a skill.. unless it's not their own code. I personally wouldn't share such code online, though I see no problem with people collaborating on it; joint efforts usually create better, more refined code. Whether or not they should be on these forums..

And in regards to "developers banning AHK in their games:" at a point, I used a bandwidth limiter to prioritize certain processes over others, so some would only trickle, but still be running. Bandwidth limiters are often used to "lag switch" in games, and as such, many games wouldn't initially run because I had it running. Their protection is weak, at best; it was incredibly easy to bypass any protection that wouldn't allow it. And, all the bypasses were written in AHK. Sure, it's an extra step, but I wasn't going to sacrifice the system I had in place for a game. Once I had them written though, that was it, no more problems with that game again. And before someone asks, no, I'm not saying we should or shouldn't have protection bypass scripts on the forum. I'm saying that if the situation comes up, the person can take their own initiative to write a bypass, or compromise by not playing the game or not running AHK/any program it's blocking.

Regarding the link to Blizzard suing Bossland: that's largely out of context of this situation. That involved monetary gain, which isn't inherently illegal, but as far as I'm aware, it's an agreed rule on these forums to disallow posts that advertise paid products, which is something I strongly stand by. These forums are for open source learning and sharing, not closed source selling.

Whatever the decision is, please notify all mods so we're all on the same page.

just a thought.
C is very hack-associated, just not so much gaming

Masonjar13 wrote:Whatever the decision is, please notify all mods so we're all on the same page.

There will be a poll w/ a date/notice.

tank wrote:Not policing on behalf of other providers but keeping us with being known as a reputable, legit, ethical organization. we cant pretend to police on behalf of anyone else. we are policing on behalf of our own perception of right and wrong.

just me wrote:Exactly!

Nextron wrote:Simple.

If the intent is to remove any association of AutoHotkey Foundation with "game botters", "game cheaters" and etc., there should be a restriction on all scripts that alter somehow online gameplay, even including single player games that have online "high score" database. Also, keep in mind that it will bring extra work for moderators that will need to check every gaming related script for compliance to these rules. Are there enough moderators to check every gaming related script?

Also what about memory scanning in software (non-gaming)? Is it considered as reverse engineering of someone's software? Is it ok?

Also what about if the author of software will ask to remove the script that automates his software but he does not want that kind of script to be available? Should that kind of script removed from forums?

What about this script? Google does not officially allow the use of Google Suggestions in third party software. How ethical is to allow such scripts? Should this kind of scripts been removed?

Good point, many ahk scripts all use "hacks" or reserve-engineered methods... :b

joedf wrote:Good point, many ahk scripts all use "hacks" or reserve-engineered methods... :b

But only in rare cases it's other users that are massively affected by it.

nnnik wrote:

joedf wrote:Good point, many ahk scripts all use "hacks" or reserve-engineered methods... :b

But only in rare cases it's other users that are massively affected by it.

It is very hard to measure the degree of users affection by the script and based on that decide to allow script or not.

joedf wrote:Good point, many ahk scripts all use "hacks" or reserve-engineered methods... :b

Exactly. That is why it is hard to distinguish "good" from "bad".

vasili111 wrote:

nnnik wrote:

joedf wrote:Good point, many ahk scripts all use "hacks" or reserve-engineered methods... :b

But only in rare cases it's other users that are massively affected by it.

It is very hard to measure the degree of users affection by the script and based on that decide to allow script or not.

Well I think in this case it's pretty simple. Anything that falls under the hack for multiplayer games category will affect other users.
Anybody that reverse engineers his own copy of Excel probably won't harm Excels users in general.

Simplify it to "unfair" advantage?

I don't think
"it will bring extra work for moderators that will need to check every gaming related script for compliance to these rules."
is accurate.

Usually people make it quite clear in the title or description, like 'CSGO BHOP' or a list of things it does, such as "you can wallhack, spin, auto-qq, infinite money" or "custom highscore number".
I guess if the game is some random unheard of indie game we might have to go look it up if it has multiplayer, but those are far and few between.

there's no need to study the code of every script, gaming or not.

then again, I also stay out of the gaming sections and stick mostly to irc. sooo... yeah.

moderation is a responsibility yes, if it's too overwhelming it's understandable... we're all volunteers with some spare time. That said we do carefully pick our moderators. And they offer help not service. The important point is to determine whether or not something should be moderated and if so how. Not how much work it is, since the community is always growing.

evilC wrote:I am not entirely sure I understand what you mean joe? From my interpretation of what you said, my previous list seems to fit that bill? Are we just seeking to tighten up and finalize some bullet points?

I have tweaked my previous list to try and clarify what is and is not OK.

• No script that manipulates your aim point while firing in a way that is not proportional to your input (eg "No Recoil") or aims / shoots for you ("Aim Bot" / "Trigger Bot").
• No script that glitches out character animations etc for the purposes of making you harder to hit (eg "Bunny Hop").
• No script that allows you to see things that would normally be obscured (eg "Wall Hacks") or that artificially inject maps / radars.

Hate to pop in unannounced, but I must correct you on one of your bullet points.
"Bunnyhop" or bhop for short, is most commonly done in Source engine games to gain a slight speed advantage over everyone else by executing the "jump" command the same tick that the player lands on the ground. If anything, it should be considered a speed cheat. FYI- I'm pretty sure every bhop script on here is unreliable anyways since it doesn't read memory.
What you might be thinking of is AntiAim, also known as "spinbot" by some, which has the purpose of moving the player's model/hitbox in a way that makes them more difficult to hit by another player.
I suggest you correct your bullet point to fit that criteria as to avoid confusion.

EDIT: If for whatever reason you moderators decide on banning scripts that "give players an unfair advantage that also go against our ethic interpretation," I made a list that states the criteria that will fall under what you all have been agreeing on what is to be considered "cheating":
Note:
"Player" is used here to mean any human using a script and playing a video game.
Reading and writing memory also applies to dll injection.

A script is considered a "cheat" when it:

• Automatically aims for the player that is not proportional to the player's input, whether via mouse_event calls or memory writing.
• Automatically compensates for recoil present with a gun, via mouse_event calls or memory writing.
• Automatically fires for the player that is not proportional to the player's input, which may be a script that shoots quickly or a script that shoots automatically to give the player an inhuman-like reaction time, via mouse_event calls or memory reading or writing.
• Gives the player a speed advantage by automatically sending a command at a specific time or in a specific time frame that cannot be normally detected by humans, via spamming a key or memory reading or writing
• Gives the player a speed advantage by other means, via memory reading/writing or packet manipulation.
• Gives the player vision assistance, or visible information not normally visible in normal play, such as wallhack, ESP, chams/chameloen skins, tracers, NoSmoke, NoFlash, or radar hacks, via memory reading/writing, modifications of software provided with the graphics card, or PixelSearch functions.
• Manipulates the player's model or hitbox to give a disadvantage to those aiming at the player by making them unhittable or difficult to hit, such as antiaim, spinbot, or lag switches, via memory reading/writing, mouse_event calls, firewall, or packet manipulation.
• Constantly changes the player's in game name as to avoid a vote kicking/banning system.
• Constantly sends a message to other players as to annoy them or distract them, via sending keystrokes or memory writing.
• Automatically completes an objective that normally takes an unavoidable amount of time, such as planting a bomb, defusing a bomb, or capturing an objective or flag, via memory reading/writing or packet manipulation.
• Teleports the player, or puts the player's in game model in an unhittable or difficult to hit spot, such as AirStuck, via memory reading/writing or packet manipulation.
• Automatically strafes for the player to correspond with mouse movement, as to gain speed, via memory reading/writing, or reading the mouse position.
• Gives the player perfect weapon accuracy, via memory reading/writing.
• Automatically disconnects the player when the player's health reaches a certain level or after a certain amount of time, via memory reading/writing, mouse_event calls, or PixelSearch function.
• Crashes another player's game, computer, or internet via memory reading/writing, packet manipulation, or DDoSing.
• Duplicates or generates any form of in game asset, whether being as a cosmetic, form of currency, or gun pattern/skin artificially via memory reading/writing or packet manipulation.
• Shows an in-game item differently to the player than as to others, such as a skin changer, via memory reading/writing, packet manipulation, or file manipulation.
• Gives the player a different perspective of the game, such as a third-person view, via memory reading or writing.
• Changes the player's health via memory reading/writing or packet manipulation.
• Avoids damage, such as damage from other players or fall damage, via memory reading/writing or packet manipulation.
• Automatically stops player movement to avoid weapon inaccuracy, via sending keystrokes or memory reading/writing.
• Avoids any form of anti-cheat or auto-kicking feature provided in the game, via mouse_event calls, sending keystrokes, or memory reading/writing.

CS:GO is completely broken, everyone in competition matchmaking is cheating, though you have banned or locked threads here for people trying to cheat they've only moved to YOUTUBE.COM to distribute their cheats. ie: 25,800 videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ahk+csgo

Being that the reason for "cracking down" on people coming here thinking this is a cheating program forum asking for help with making cheats, was because of the bad reputation this site was getting.

it's only got worse now that they've had to move to youtube to get their message out, at least if you had kept them on this forum where everyone can see the code and warn people if it's has viruses or other nasty stuff. who knows what they're distributing now under the AHK name claiming it is a script?

my point is by trying to shut them down you've only drove them to a much larger platform and has had the very effect you were attempting to avoid

we were not trying to stop people from cheating (though, that'd be nice), but try to stop them from posting here, to protect ahks reputation on the official site, help avoid more false-positives by AV, look a little more professional, etc. We are not the police of the internet, only on this small site. There's 1000's of cheating/hacking forums and services like youtube that we don't go to and tell them to stop releasing ahk hacks.

If we let them post here? we'd be the hacking/cheating hub. People like me don't want that here. It wouldn't change a thing. People will always make hacks and find a place to share them. We (or atleast me) don't want this to be that place.

Also because of this topic, we have now posted more official rules, which includes cheating. https://autohotkey.com/forumrules/

GreatGazoo wrote:it's only got worse now that they've had to move to youtube to get their message out, at least if you had kept them on this forum where everyone can see the code and warn people if it's has viruses or other nasty stuff. who knows what they're distributing now under the AHK name claiming it is a script?

This doesn't make any sense at all. What people choose to code with a given language does not reflect in any way on the language itself. You don't see C+, VB or any other language getting a bunch of hate(or banned from games) because people managed to write a virus with them. Keeping that kind of thing off this website and publicly condemning the usage of such scripts is literally the ONLY thing we can do to separate ourselves from the people with nefarious purposes. What people want to code and release on other platforms, with a free to use product, is literally none of your(or any of our) damn business.

Language - no, we cannot break the association between that and cheating (If you look in the right places - you can find anything on YouTube), no point trying really.
This community? Hell yes we can try and break that association, many of the people on this forum who contribute something lasting to the community do not want their good work associated with such an unsavory scene.

Also, as far as I am aware (Someone please correct me if I am wrong), the AutoHotkey Foundation (Whose home is basically this forum), is a legal registered entity, people are going to lengths to promote a professional image. Bear in mind that games are not AHK's primary target audience - that would be productivity. Do you really think office admins are gonna accept some poor drone's request to whitelist Autohotkey.exe if they check out the site and see the forums awash with hacking stuff?

Ruevil2 wrote:

GreatGazoo wrote:it's only got worse now that they've had to move to youtube to get their message out, at least if you had kept them on this forum where everyone can see the code and warn people if it's has viruses or other nasty stuff. who knows what they're distributing now under the AHK name claiming it is a script?

This doesn't make any sense at all. What people choose to code with a given language does not reflect in any way on the language itself. You don't see C+, VB or any other language getting a bunch of hate(or banned from games) because people managed to write a virus with them. Keeping that kind of thing off this website and publicly condemning the usage of such scripts is literally the ONLY thing we can do to separate ourselves from the people with nefarious purposes. What people want to code and release on other platforms, with a free to use product, is literally none of your(or any of our) damn business.

Don't get me wrong, guys I'm with you, CS:GO is pretty much impossible to play now, I'm just pointing out you can go on youtube and there is about 2.8 million videos of csgo videos including the words cheat or hack, and the large majority of them are saying go to autohotkey.com and download AHK and then save this .txt file as .ahk and run as admin and etc etc "it'll never be detected" it's a shame it's a real shame