Rule Poll

Discussion about the AutoHotkey Foundation and this website

Select the rules you agree with

No Malicious Stuff
43
15%
Require Open Source
33
11%
Disallowing Bypassing, Hacks
15
5%
Disallow Cheating in Games
14
5%
No Spam
50
17%
Inappropriate content
39
13%
General Behaviour
34
12%
Interacting with this website
32
11%
Reporting
33
11%
 
Total votes: 293
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joedf
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Re: Rule Poll

23 Nov 2017, 23:41

jeeswg wrote:Btw if you're a new user, how do you know that you've successfully submitted a post, but that it's waiting for approval. What do you see? Do you see the post on the forum, while nobody else can?

There's a notice with large bold text, but many just don't notice or see it... probably close the tab right away or click a different page... :think:
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nnnik
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 01:11

- Don't invent syntax you know is wrong. Actually this isn't so bad, and sometimes it helps to explain the problem, or gives me ideas for new syntax suggestions or custom functions
Have you ever heard of pseudo code?
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jeeswg
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 01:14

I don't know why exactly, but you've helped me put my finger on it. Sometimes people write pseudocode, and then say something like: 'I ran that, but it didn't work'. Of course it didn't work.

I've updated my post:
Rule Poll - Page 2 - AutoHotkey Community
https://autohotkey.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39638&p=184466#p184466
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Drugwash
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 05:20

Nextron wrote:In reality, it won't be realistic to determine the intended use of a script.
Actually, sometimes the intended purpose/use of a script can be determined from its title and/or contents (references to application names etc), but nobody can determine its actual use on any user's computer. Your example of the mouse disabling script is eloquent in this regard, as well as - say - a BSOD prank script that could be modified/used legitimately as a locking screen in a sensible environment.
Nextron wrote:Moreover, some gaming scripts contain interesting code which can be a valuable reference for other purposes.
Completely agree. Adding that any code in any other scripts completely unrelated to gaming could be "imported" and adapted to a gaming script.
Nextron wrote:I use a legitimate mouse disabling script to prevent my PC coming out of stand by due to sensor jitter […]
I'd like to have that script and also one for the keyboard - my new cat got a habit of jumping onto the table and laying down on the mice or walking on the keyboards. BTW, if it was a newbie requesting this type of scripts would anyone believe them…? (maybe you don't believe me either)
Nextron wrote:The strictness of the AutoIt forum is undesirable imo; an arbitrary line of good-bad.
Most rules are such arbitrary lines, generically restricting the rights of all users due to some assumed/possible/probable misuse of… anything by one or just a few individuals. It's the "guilty until proven otherwise" rule that imposed itself in all domains of our lives replacing the former "innocent until proven otherwise", thus punishing all of us by default.

So, where do we draw the line? Or, are we to draw any…?

Sorry for the interference, just had to take it off my chest.
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 05:42

Drugwash wrote:
Nextron wrote:The strictness of the AutoIt forum is undesirable imo; an arbitrary line of good-bad.

Most rules are such arbitrary lines, generically restricting the rights of all users due to some assumed/possible/probable misuse of… anything by one or just a few individuals. It's the "guilty until proven otherwise" rule that imposed itself in all domains of our lives replacing the former "innocent until proven otherwise", thus punishing all of us by default.

I think they are just avoiding the "grey areas" which will cause endless discussions again and again. You're free to join a forum and accept the rules. It's solely your own decision.
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Drugwash
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 06:09

Nobody asks you if you agree with the rules when you join life though.
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 06:16

But you're forced to obey whatever rules are set for your current location though.
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Drugwash
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 06:31

Keyword: forced.
At least in life you can "delete your account" if you don't agree with its rules - not so much on a forum board.
We're getting off-topic and wasting bandwidth with a too long and complex discussion. I'll stop here.
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nnnik
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 06:33

just me wrote:
Drugwash wrote:
Nextron wrote:The strictness of the AutoIt forum is undesirable imo; an arbitrary line of good-bad.

Most rules are such arbitrary lines, generically restricting the rights of all users due to some assumed/possible/probable misuse of… anything by one or just a few individuals. It's the "guilty until proven otherwise" rule that imposed itself in all domains of our lives replacing the former "innocent until proven otherwise", thus punishing all of us by default.

I think they are just avoiding the "grey areas" which will cause endless discussions again and again. You're free to join a forum and accept the rules. It's solely your own decision.

We are making the current rules with the current users of this board in mind and we don't plan to make them rethink their decision of joining this forum at least the majority.

And you are still innocent until proven otherwise. We just had many users requesting an official rule statement.
I think Drugwash has lost any objectivity on this matter and is purely arguing based on emotion.
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Capn Odin
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 07:01

Drugwash wrote:maybe you don't believe me either
I know your kind, you are planning to have it run at start up on the computer of all elderly cat ladies, this will make them unable to function in society and evolution will take its course, resulting in a reduction of the demand for cat food and since the suppliers won't be able to scale back production fast enough, this will drive the price down, it is at this point that you will go to the grocery to buy a cheap can of cat food.

I catch myself thinking this when people ask for these types of scripts on the forum, however I usually try to act like I am not judging people, but I know that you just want to avoid paing a premium for your pet food.
Please excuse my spelling I am dyslexic.
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Drugwash
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Re: Rule Poll

24 Nov 2017, 07:35

Ha ha ha ha ha, nice! :lol:
FanaticGuru
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Re: Rule Poll

27 Nov 2017, 13:49

Just noticed this poll.

Of all the posters, Blackholyman is probably the one I align with the most.

I am not for policing whether people are hacking or cheating in games.

First, it is very difficult and subjective. That is the job of the game developers to decide how hard they want to make it.

Second, it will not stop the cheating of the script author only the distribution that makes it easier for the less skilled scripters. Might as well level the playing field which will let everyone that wants to cheat, cheat. Then the game developer can decide if they want to make the game harder to cheat in. It is not that hard to make a game that is difficult for AHK to interact with. Most game developers only care about cheating if it is overly disruptive. They would brother have a low profile cheater than a person not playing at all.

Third, I have not really seen any great cheat scripts posted here. A ton of CSGO no-recoil scripts. That game must be very script friendly. It is far from the most popular first person shooter but the one I see by far the most scripts posted for. I have never seen the really sophisticated bots posted here. Maybe the moderates have been deleting them all along but I imagine it is just that the best cheats don't get posted.

I am for open source, open knowledge. I am for all knowledge about AHK being exchanged here that is not clearly malicious or illegal. I would not help someone looking for info on how to crash a hard drive but I would help them to write a script to send an email to everyone in their Outlook contacts. I would hope they would not put it in a loop and spam a million emails a day but if they do that is on them. I am not for anything goes but would brother error on the side of being too open than too closed.

Openness has been good for AutoHotkey and probably a big reason why it is more popular, based on Google searches, than AutoIt.

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hugin
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Re: Rule Poll

27 Nov 2017, 17:33

My look at the game scripts
(Only one that is infecting myself)

I am pretty new to the AHK community, and found this site when I was looking for scripts that could help me use the keyboard more smoothly with 8 fingers intact. I have all ten, but both my pinky fingers are in a 90° angle due to my work in my younger days.

So, when I need to reach the keys on the left I usually have problems after playing games (Fatigue, stiffness etc)

So I usually compensate with a mouse with more buttons and sometimes use macros. (Razer Tyon)

But also it has an impact on my mouse hand after a while and I go numb in my hole hand. Example, when trying to knife kill a wolf in The game "The Long Dark" I can't spam quickly enough.
Hence I found AHK and I could compensate for this with a spam script.

Note: I am totally against using AHK script-cheats in multiplayer games. Only would be weapon selection scripts maybe. As you can do in Quake 3, Enemy Territory with .cfg etc.

Any no-recoil, wall hack etc I am not a particular found about being posted on the forum.

AND: I only use my AHK scripts in Single Player games, period.

But, is it up the the AHK community to police this?
I don't know, but in a bigger picture, having game developers seeing that AHK is helping out making and let players share those script in the forum might or might not be in the benefit for AHK.

I'm not trying to have a side here. But simply trying to highlight the issues with those types of scripts on the forum.

So, basically it is hard to allow some scripts and deny others.

Masonjar13 had a good point in this thread, as it is not up to AHK to police what people risk using such scripts.
I take the liberty to link to the thread here.
Hope that is ok Masonjar13 :)

The other choices to vote for besides No Spam and General Behavior is unchecked. As I am not to often on the forum to have a strong enough opinion on the matter.

  • No Malicious Stuff
  • Require Open Source
  • Disallowing Bypassing, Hacks
  • Disallow Cheating in Games
  • No Spam (Voted)
  • Inappropriate content
  • General Behaviour (Voted)
  • Interacting with this website
  • Reporting
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joedf
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Re: Rule Poll

27 Nov 2017, 19:20

Good or bad openness is important. I personally would have no rules, just guidelines... it may be a little chaotic at times, but regardless... it’s freedom of speech in some sense. But I have to execute what is voted.
That said, the anti cheat and hack do not make the cutoff so far... which is 21 votes.
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Masonjar13
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Re: Rule Poll

01 Dec 2017, 03:19

hugin wrote:Hope that is ok Masonjar13 :)

Most certainly! And I absolutely still stand by what I said, but I'm one who is willing to compromise to reach a respectable end-goal, which is to have rules. We certainly need some rules/guidelines in place to create coherency and as to not explicitly troll people, which the post you linked expresses quite well. The OP was chastised quite inappropriately, with no reason other than moral agenda.

As previously mentioned, we do of course have some "rules" already, though we also don't. The mods are rather lenient, and discuss issues with the rest of the mods on situations they're unsure of, but as it is, we can do whatever we want, based purely on personal morality. I don't agree with this, of course, because everyone has different moral alignments. I don't agree with being heavy-handed either, but there needs to be some tangible consistency to avoid perpetuating and redundant discussions.

I unsubbed this topic a long time ago for a lot of reasons, decided to come check on it for no particular reason. In the future, to anyone really, feel free to quote me to get my attention, as that's the only way I'll get a notification.

joedf wrote:I personally would have no rules, just guidelines...

I agree, as long as the staff also abides by such. All we really need is defined ends to situations, such as gaming scripts. It's been argued long enough; block them or keep them, discussions should not be a variable every time. Illegal content can't be allowed though, obviously, and those are the only "true" rules right now. At least, that's what I follow, though it's not often a problem.

Note: as far as I've seen, writing and owning malicious code, as well as software cracks/bypasses, is not illegal. The use of them may be, however. Just some general information.
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KuroiLight
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Re: Rule Poll

01 Dec 2017, 20:15

Masonjar13 wrote:Illegal content

What is illegal content?

Masonjar13 wrote:Note: as far as I've seen, writing and owning malicious code, as well as software cracks/bypasses, is not illegal. The use of them may be, however. Just some general information.

I would [maybe] draw the line at crack tools, maybe malicious code... really depends, I personally wouldn't mind it as long as the the entire board didn't turn into HackForums v2 :ugeek: , IMO...

My biggest issue is this is all a grey area; everything from malware, hacks and crack tools to system monitoring and security utilities could technically fall under the same umbrella.
Keyloggers for example could be used maliciously and on the other hand I have a script on my system that starts keylogging when I go afk and will send notifications to my phone when there is activity when certain conditions arn't met;
Or an autoclicker: I made an easy to setup customize-able autoclicker class and am not sure if I should even post it at this point if these rules would get me in trouble.

Maybe I'm just a broken record by now, Sorry, just strongly opposed to anything that would force me to tiptoe-post. :silent:
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Re: Rule Poll

01 Dec 2017, 23:19

KuroiLight wrote:What is illegal content?

That's a very, very long list. In terms of what I look for, usually intent to maliciously use code. When making a crack or bypass, that intent is almost always (can't think of an instance otherwise) to use it to steal software. Then there's that grey area of bypassing security protocols.. It's not always illegal, or for illegal intent. Just as well, hacking tools, like Kali, can also be legal to use. For instance, I was part of a networking club in college that taught and allowed the practice of using Kali for purposes that would certainly be illegal in practical use. But if it's in a controlled environment, or only affecting hardware/software you own/have permission to do so with, it's then legal. Pen testing is a valid, well-paid profession.

Decompilation of code is also illegal in some countries. Since this is a non-country-specific forum, it would be best to disallow requests for such entirely. There's a tool for it stickied on one of these sub forums anyway. If that doesn't work and someone really wants to, there's dedicated forums on Reddit that would probably get it done much quicker.

The most "black and white," or obvious violation would be to post copywrited material, or similar sensitive info (like credit card numbers, addresses, etc.) they don't own the rights for.

I would immediately and immovably vote against allowing crack tools due to the intent of theft. Affected companies will absolutely try to sue, and they usually win (interesting, seeing as it's not inherently illegal.. almost as if the system is completely broken :roll: ). There are plenty of other sites that can host them (usually hosted in Russia or China, as they have more lenient laws on them, or at least more lenient enforcement), even if they're made in AHK. We certainly don't need that kind of press.

KuroiLight wrote:Keyloggers

This word use to be sin about 8+ years ago. I haven't heard of one being use maliciously for quite some time, though. That being said, with modification, your script could certainly be used maliciously. For scripts I've written that could be misused, I simply don't post them, to avoid that grey area altogether. However, with Windows 10, almost everything, including hotkeys, have to have administrative privilege. Not everyone is on Windows 10 (myself included), but it's safe to say that the majority of non-tech Windows users are already on it with UAC enabled.

I can't form an opinion for or against keylogger-type scripts being on the forums, therefore I abstain.
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WAZAAAAA
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Re: Rule Poll

05 Dec 2017, 19:53

This forum would turn into the shitfest that is the AutoIt forum in an instant with all those arbitrary, oppressive, generic rules.

Just make obvious bot spam/flood offenses bannable, that's all a forum really needs to function. The rest of the rules are too debatable and subjective. Applying them would also be too much of an unnecessary effort to undertake by the moderation team. Don't limit how users want to use AHK.

About posts deletion, forum software "Discourse" keeps a copy of every post edit history (permanently afaik) and deletions (temporary) à la wikipedia, maybe there is a phpBB plugin that can emulate it somehow.
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joedf
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Re: Rule Poll

05 Dec 2017, 23:10

yeah :/
Well they didnt pass the vote, so technically they are not disallowed ;)
EDIT: wait maybe malicious... i forgot :p

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