[closed][POLL] Commissions sub-forum

Community news and information about new or upcoming versions of AutoHotkey

Commission Sub-forum

Poll ended at 12 Sep 2017, 23:32

Yes, I want there to be a commission sub-forum!
25
45%
No, I don't want there to be a commission sub-forum!
30
55%
 
Total votes: 55
User avatar
Joe Glines
Posts: 482
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 20:49
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theAutomatorGuru/
Google: https://plus.google.com/105328929654286634910
GitHub: joetazz
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 06:25

To me having commission based stuff on it's own sub-forum just means it will clear out some of the junk in the other places. If you're not interested in making $ off AutoHotkey, then simply don't look at the sub-forum (and enjoy a slightly lower amount of noise in the ones you do care about)

If AutoHotkey is to grow & have a larger appeal (not to mention keep people that work in it around for a longer time frame) I feel making it easier to make some money is a step in the right direction.
guest3456
Posts: 2079
Joined: 09 Oct 2013, 10:31

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 06:53

Masonjar13 wrote:Explanation (to how I feel) about these three topics:
  • Someone asks for help and someone reciprocates = win/win. The user looking for help gets helped/taught and the user helping gets the satisfaction of teaching/helping that person.
  • Someone offers payment and someone reciprocates = win/win. The user looking for a solution obtains said solution and the user who did the work gets paid.
  • Someone requests and someone reciprocates = win/lose. The user looking for a solution obtains said solution and the user who did the work receives nothing.


this makes no sense. 1 and 3 are the same. in both cases, no one forced you to respond to help. you chose it.

that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a subforum asking for paid help. maybe there should be. but this reasoning makes no sense.

User avatar
joedf
Posts: 6015
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:08
Facebook: J0EDF
Google: +joedf
GitHub: joedf
Location: Canada, Quebec
Contact:

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 07:02

There's a slight difference between 1 and 3. I didn't get it the first time I read it quickly. In the first one the learning user is more engaged in understanding rather than just download and run solution. A comparison with stackoverflow is the "homework" scenario. Users create this one time account to get a solution then leave satisfied or not after a while and that's even if there's a functioning solution or not.
User avatar
kczx3
Posts: 422
Joined: 06 Oct 2015, 21:39

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 07:21

Capn Odin wrote:To me the worst exchange is when someone makes an unclear request, you solve it to the extent possible with the limited information, and they replay "It doesn't work" with no explanation as to what it does wrong nor signs that they have tried fixing it them self.


This drives me nuts too!
User avatar
Masonjar13
Posts: 1140
Joined: 20 Jul 2014, 10:16
GitHub: Masonjar13
Location: Не Россия

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 12:56

joedf wrote:There's a slight difference between 1 and 3. I didn't get it the first time I read it quickly. In the first one the learning user is more engaged in understanding rather than just download and run solution.

Correct! I'm surprised you're the only one who understood that, honestly. That difference is very important for people who actively teach or tutor people. It's the difference between them actually learning and having the work done for them.

obeeb wrote:If the goal of the commissions forum is to limit the amount of help(which includes doing and not only explaining) people receive from willing helpers then I changed my mind, I do care and I'm against it.

That was completely out of left-field.. where did you come up with that idea?

@Joe Glines, you've got the right idea :thumbup: Sorry I haven't been at the last few webinars by the way, I've been really busy :(
User avatar
joedf
Posts: 6015
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:08
Facebook: J0EDF
Google: +joedf
GitHub: joedf
Location: Canada, Quebec
Contact:

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 13:14

formulating on what Joe Glines is saying, I see this as a method to render the forums as a more effective resource and cut down on inconclusive and non-helpful forum topics.
obeeb
Posts: 140
Joined: 20 Feb 2014, 19:15

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 15:01

Masonjar13 wrote:
joedf wrote:There's a slight difference between 1 and 3. I didn't get it the first time I read it quickly. In the first one the learning user is more engaged in understanding rather than just download and run solution.

Correct! I'm surprised you're the only one who understood that, honestly. That difference is very important for people who actively teach or tutor people. It's the difference between them actually learning and having the work done for them.

Oh I understood that part, I still don't understand why in your opinion one is win/win the other is win/lose. I will explain myself again just to make sure everything is clear, if you don't want to do 3 don't do it if somebody else wants to then it's a win for him.

Masonjar13 wrote:
obeeb wrote:If the goal of the commissions forum is to limit the amount of help(which includes doing and not only explaining) people receive from willing helpers then I changed my mind, I do care and I'm against it.

That was completely out of left-field.. where did you come up with that idea?

Really?! I've got that from YOU!!!
Masonjar13 wrote:Exactly. :) Commissions digress from asking for help, so that was one reason we've pushed this poll: to separate learning from requesting.

When I see a comment like that from a moderator I immediately imagine posts being moved from 'ask for help' to commissions because they were too "requesty"(not a word but you get what I mean).

joedf wrote:A comparison with stackoverflow is the "homework" scenario. Users create this one time account to get a solution then leave satisfied or not after a while and that's even if there's a functioning solution or not.

StackOverflow is in many ways a terrible place and taking anything from it will be very bad for this forum. I completely fail to see what is so bad in people getting solutions to their problems.
User avatar
Masonjar13
Posts: 1140
Joined: 20 Jul 2014, 10:16
GitHub: Masonjar13
Location: Не Россия

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 15:55

Ookaaayy.. well I guess I'll try and explain again.

obeeb wrote:if you don't want to do 3 don't do it if somebody else wants to then it's a win for him.

You've misinterpreted what I was saying. It wasn't subjective to myself. They were my opinions, I didn't say I was doing any of them. I didn't even say "I" or "me," anything to identify myself in the examples.. I said them the way I did to get across my point.

obeeb wrote:Really?! I've got that from YOU!!!
...
When I see a comment like that from a moderator I immediately imagine posts being moved from 'ask for help' to commissions because they were too "requesty"(not a word but you get what I mean).


After I said that requests (without payment) were discouraged and often ignored..? I don't believe that's my fault. Understanding context is important; "requesting" in that sentence was related to what I deem acceptable as a request, that is, with payment involved.

obeeb wrote:StackOverflow is in many ways a terrible place

Having opinions are welcome of course, but it would prove more useful to the situation if you added your reasons.

Not sure how you're interpreting joedf there.. but he's saying that they're not additive to the community. This is a community and we're trying to continue to expand upon it. With one-sided requests, they often state their request and wait for a solution, never to contribute to anything else, or even respond to the solution. With two-sided requests (commissions), both parties will be more engaged, as one has money on the line and one has a solution on the line. That is, one party wants the money, so they do the work, and the other is wanting a solution, enough to spend money on it, so both will be more responsive. I say "party" in place of "person," because there may be more than one person on each side.
obeeb
Posts: 140
Joined: 20 Feb 2014, 19:15

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

18 Aug 2017, 17:18

Masonjar13 wrote:You've misinterpreted what I was saying. It wasn't subjective to myself. They were my opinions, I didn't say I was doing any of them. I didn't even say "I" or "me," anything to identify myself in the examples.. I said them the way I did to get across my point.

This is the second time you accuse me of having problems with reading comprehension, I told you, I understood you perfectly the first time, I would appreciate if you will stop insulting me.
I had a very specific problem with your opinion, Capn Odin understood and commented on it, you never did.

Masonjar13 wrote:After I said that requests (without payment) were discouraged and often ignored..? I don't believe that's my fault. Understanding context is important; "requesting" in that sentence was related to what I deem acceptable as a request, that is, with payment involved.

I just saw that a couple posts before that you said that those topics will remain were they are. I somehow missed that, this was my mistake and I apologize.

Masonjar13 wrote:
obeeb wrote:StackOverflow is in many ways a terrible place

Having opinions are welcome of course, but it would prove more useful to the situation if you added your reasons.

I thought that StackOveflow having issues is common knowledge. Don't see how explaining why in Autohotkey forum will be useful but if it's important please tell me again and I will do that.

Masonjar13 wrote:Not sure how you're interpreting joedf there.. but he's saying that they're not additive to the community. This is a community and we're trying to continue to expand upon it. With one-sided requests, they often state their request and wait for a solution, never to contribute to anything else, or even respond to the solution. With two-sided requests (commissions), both parties will be more engaged, as one has money on the line and one has a solution on the line. That is, one party wants the money, so they do the work, and the other is wanting a solution, enough to spend money on it, so both will be more responsive. I say "party" in place of "person," because there may be more than one person on each side.

I wasn't here for a while. From what I remember the niceness of the Autohotkey community was always its strongest point. I don't remember helping people without them adding to the community being a concern but I guess things changed.
guest3456
Posts: 2079
Joined: 09 Oct 2013, 10:31

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 06:59

joedf wrote:There's a slight difference between 1 and 3. I didn't get it the first time I read it quickly. In the first one the learning user is more engaged in understanding rather than just download and run solution. A comparison with stackoverflow is the "homework" scenario. Users create this one time account to get a solution then leave satisfied or not after a while and that's even if there's a functioning solution or not.

Masonjar13 wrote:Correct! I'm surprised you're the only one who understood that, honestly. That difference is very important for people who actively teach or tutor people. It's the difference between them actually learning and having the work done for them.


I'm well aware of that difference. In fact, in the past, I've rudely responded to posters with something along the lines of, "I'm not going to help you if you don't want to even help yourself"

Still, that's irrelevant. If you are aware of that difference, as I am, then you have the choice to 1. respond as I have, 2. not respond at all, or 3. to still offer you help anyway. No one if forcing you to do any of them. And no one needs a separate subforum simply because the helper is somehow unsatisfied with the attitude of the asker. Sure, it will ultimately either turn off the helpers, or more likely, the helpers will just respond to the other posts that have a more genuine intent on learning. Either way, the free market policies itself.

Like @obeeb said, do you plan on moving Ask For Help topics to the Commisions forum, essentially demanding payment, simply because your perception was that the user didn't 'ask' his question in the correct way? If not, then whats the point of the whole 1,2,3 reasonings? Because that's exactly what its sounding like by making these 'reason's for needing the new forum.

This whole discussion has turned to nonsense. These are ridiculous justifications to back up your support for it, which makes the whole thing even more questionable and probably self-serving. Masonjar has a 'donation' link in his signature and in the past was looking for paid-for AHK work in his signature as well. I have no problem with that either; no offense is intended by that at all. People should be able to make money off of their skills. And providing free help can be very very time consuming. But can we at least be upfront about our purposes here?

Regardless, I still have nothing against the new subforum, as I have been on both sides of the buyer/seller dynamic in regards to paid for scripting in the past. Hell, I'm plenty capable, but I could still see myself posting for paid projects simply because sometimes I'd rather just pay someone instead of be bothered to write a script. I think its a fine idea to have a place for people who just want something done, to be able to post. So go do it. We don't need all this nonsense. If it somehow turns into a shitshow, then just take the forum down later.

obeeb
Posts: 140
Joined: 20 Feb 2014, 19:15

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 07:19

guest3456 wrote:Still, that's irrelevant. If you are aware of that difference, as I am, then you have the choice to 1. respond as I have, 2. not respond at all, or 3. to still offer you help anyway. No one if forcing you to do any of them. And no one needs a separate subforum simply because the helper is somehow unsatisfied with the attitude of the asker. Sure, it will ultimately either turn off the helpers, or more likely, the helpers will just respond to the posts that have a more genuine intent on learning. Either way, the free market policies itself.

He probably will say you misunderstood him followed by some nonsense about the incorrect usage of "you" and "I" instead of responding to what you actually said.

guest3456 wrote: Like @obeeb said, do you plan on moving Ask For Help topics, simply because your perception was that the user didn't 'ask' his question in the correct way? Because that's exactly what its sounding like by making these 'reason's for needing the new forum.

To be fair he did say earlier that this won't happen though an explicit confirmation will be nice.
obeeb
Posts: 140
Joined: 20 Feb 2014, 19:15

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 08:28

One additional thing. I don't think site administrators and moderators should participate in the commission forum. This leaves too much room for abuse. Alternatively it can be a specially moderated forum by a select few and only they won't participate.
User avatar
joedf
Posts: 6015
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:08
Facebook: J0EDF
Google: +joedf
GitHub: joedf
Location: Canada, Quebec
Contact:

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 11:48

Woah woah! This is getting a little out of hand!
Please excuse me if I've miss something, there's a lot since my last post.
Nobody will move nothing unless explicitly said Request in exchange of something or what else makes it obvious. The idea is people will willing post there instead of moving topics around. Of course it's next to impossible to avoid "requesty" topics. But having nothing in place for those that want to request a solution is not any better. Everybody can still post in Ask For Help.
Remember, this is PURELY for sorting purposes. There's no rule on no more "requesty" topics. StackOverflow has this rule, we DO NOT. If we wanted to do that we wound just put that rule in place. This is just sorting! Nothing else, it's still in Ask For Help, as a subforum.
I don't want put restrictions on posting anymore than we have to.
This forum is meant to be open to everyone. Simply offering a new "category".
guest3456
Posts: 2079
Joined: 09 Oct 2013, 10:31

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 11:57

obeeb wrote:One additional thing. I don't think site administrators and moderators should participate in the commission forum. This leaves too much room for abuse. Alternatively it can be a specially moderated forum by a select few and only they won't participate.


I dont really see a problem with admins or mods participating. If abuse happens then things can be altered then

joedf wrote:Woah woah! This is getting a little out of hand!
Please excuse me if I've miss something, there's a lot since my last post.
Nobody will move nothing unless explicitly said Request in exchange of something or what else makes it obvious. The idea is people will willing post there instead of moving topics around. Of course it's next to impossible to avoid "requesty" topics. But having nothing in place for those that want to request a solution is not any better. Everybody can still post in Ask For Help.
Remember, this is PURELY for sorting purposes. There's no rule on no more "requesty" topics. StackOverflow has this rule, we DO NOT. If we wanted to do that we wound just put that rule in place. This is just sorting! Nothing else, it's still in Ask For Help, as a subforum.
I don't want put restrictions on posting anymore than we have to.
This forum is meant to be open to everyone. Simply offering a new "category".


Ok sounds good.

Guest
Posts: 56
Joined: 17 Oct 2013, 02:32

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 16:09

joedf wrote:Woah woah! This is getting a little out of hand!
And this is just talking about it, guess what happens if it is actually there and money is involved, sooner or later it will backfire (someone will double cross someone etc). I would not recommend to add it, there is already a well established community often working with AHK - mentioned many times before: DonationCoder. This is a rather friendly place, lets not introduce money into it. Just my 2cts ;)

What does Lexikos think?
Vh_
Posts: 152
Joined: 17 Mar 2017, 22:06

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

19 Aug 2017, 16:42

+1!

I think it'd be great to have a section for that. Then those willing to pay may get the request done faster, as those wanting to earn will check that sub forum more often.
User avatar
nnnik
Posts: 2317
Joined: 30 Sep 2013, 01:01
Location: Germany

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

20 Aug 2017, 03:00

I am going to leave the community if this were to happen.
Recommends AHK Studio
User avatar
Capn Odin
Posts: 1274
Joined: 23 Feb 2016, 19:45
Location: Denmark

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

20 Aug 2017, 08:18

nnnik wrote:I am going to leave the community if this were to happen.

That would be a great loss, I hope it won't have to end in you leaving. Maybe your concerns can be accounted for if you would share your opinions on the topic.
Please excuse my spelling I am dyslexic.
User avatar
joedf
Posts: 6015
Joined: 29 Sep 2013, 17:08
Facebook: J0EDF
Google: +joedf
GitHub: joedf
Location: Canada, Quebec
Contact:

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

20 Aug 2017, 09:25

I personally am not interested in posting in this subforum. So I won't, but some want to and it wouldn't be right for me to ignore what is voiced by all users.

Lexikos usually has no interest in these matters. He tends to stay away from any policy/regulation/forum managing.
CAH9t
Posts: 29
Joined: 15 Jul 2017, 11:12
Location: Land

Re: [POLL] Commissions sub-forum

20 Aug 2017, 11:00

Very fishy stuff with bundle of very much unpredictable scenarios. Ahk is one thing, life (aka marketing and economy) and everything about donating (aka green matter) is another . I don't really think that you can balance your course so it won't dissuade experienced coders to help people for an idea (aka free of charge) but if you're really up to it (aka not only thinking that you are) than be my guest.

Return to “Announcements”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests